# Yes, "300" is the most homoerotic action movie ever made **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 20, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735 "2007-03-20T17:04:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![scareyfaerie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scareyfaerie/32/3135_2.png) [@scareyfaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scareyfaerie)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/121 "2007-03-22T14:58:50Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] if 300 is homoerotic, does that mean I’m not allowed to enjoy the view? [/QUOTE] We were talking about this in the pub last night and decided that although the Spartans were obviously gay, it really won’t detract from the visual aspects of the film. Well, I’ll most likely be drooling anyway! ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/122 "2007-03-22T14:59:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 0 gladiators = no homoerotic content; example: _A Brief History of Time._ [/QUOTE] Obviously, no one’s ever given you the _Gehrig Butterfly_. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/123 "2007-03-22T15:15:29Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Wait, are you a straight woman thinking you need to change to a man, or a straight man thinking you need to change into a woman to be able to enjoy it? (Sorry, I’ve never known your gender or if I did, I shamefully forgot what it was) [/QUOTE] Straight female. But since my main reason to see that movie is the views… heck, with those posters I might go watch it in German, I wouldn’t understand a single line but who cares… well, I do hope I don’t need to get surgery, cos by the time that’s over I’d need to buy the DVD. Plus it would be a pain to then go and convince Seguridad Social that I need them to pay for a second sex change so I can go back to being a straight female. ---
**Author:** ![gromehown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@gromehown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gromehown)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/124 "2007-03-22T15:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] um..none. What do you think Shrek is? [/QUOTE] I think Shrek is kinda like an animated cartoon, one where adults don’t really take the characters to be serious “live” beings. Whereas in movies like Lord of the rings and 300 at the moment, there are sequences of mass computer generated beings which we are supposed to consider as being “live” actors. I was asking how long before we see normal person-to-person scenes which are fully digitized. If this has already been done, please tell me… ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/125 "2007-03-22T15:23:32Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Straight female. But since my main reason to see that movie is the views… heck, with those posters I might go watch it in German, I wouldn’t understand a single line but who cares… well, I do hope I don’t need to get surgery, cos by the time that’s over I’d need to buy the DVD. Plus it would be a pain to then go and convince Seguridad Social that I need them to pay for a second sex change so I can go back to being a straight female. [/QUOTE] Ah, thanks. You don’t have to change your sex. There’s MUCH for us straight women to enjoy. I don’t think you need the English version either (they overdub there? Ewww), because you will certainly get the gist. Lots of gist. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/126 "2007-03-22T16:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Jesus, I’ve been in high school showers surrounded by 20 male cocks, and young shiny, male bodies (let’s clarify NOW: this was when I was in High School), and as far as I was concerned, there was nothing homo-erotic about it. [/QUOTE] Dissected for comparison here: [QUOTE=Trunk] It was called showering after soccer practice. [/QUOTE] Not homoerotic. The other men/boys aren’t being eroticized. [QUOTE=Trunk] And, yeah, we’d notice and even make fun of other guy’s dongs. (a memorable line, “my god, Jason, you could fuck around a corner with that thing.”) [/QUOTE] Homoerotic. The other man/boy has been eroticized. [QUOTE=Trunk] I never once had a fantasy involving a single one of those dongs. [/QUOTE] If you had, _that_ would have been gay. And homoerotic. I don’t think this is all that difficult to define: erotic = men presented as sex objects homoerotic = men presented as sex objects either (1) to appeal to other men, or (2) in a context with _only_ other men (i.e., no women involved). I would conclude that _Top Gun_ therefore merits less gladiators than _Tango & Cash_, since there was a woman in the former, but I don’t recall one in the latter. Let’s say: _Tango & Cash_ = 75 gladiators (prison scenes, albeit not Turkish ones) _Top Gun_ = 50 gladiators (half-as-stuffed as Brokeback) ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/127 "2007-03-22T17:09:06Z")
[QUOTE=Lightray] Homoerotic. The other man/boy has been eroticized. [/QUOTE] You mean “ridiculed in a good natured fashion with a taunt that just as easily could have been about the pimple on his forehead except we happened to be looking at his dong”? If you want to use it in that context, you’re removing any notion of “desire” or “lust” or “attraction” from the word “eroticize”. You might as well label a chlamydia exam homoerotic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/128 "2007-03-22T21:54:40Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Whatever it’s meaning is, some people seem to love to toss it into certain things straight males enjoy, which can lead it to be read as a puerile way of needling the breeders. [/quote] You’ve noticed this, too? I tend to lump it in with calling someone who claims to be straight a “latent”, or saying they’re subconsciously homophobic, or something else unprovable, either pro or con. Like calling them “defensive”. 😃 On further reflection, it occurs to me that _Jarhead_ may not actually qualify as a homoerotic action movie, since much of it is about how the Desert Shield Marines try not to go nuts during months of **in** action. As war movies go, it’s a fairly sedate one. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/129 "2007-03-22T22:26:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Great! Now we’ve got a scale! 0 gladiators = no homoerotic content; example: _A Brief History of Time._ 100 gladiators = chock full of homoerotic content; example: _Brokeback Mountain._ 100+ gladiators = gay porn. So, how many gladiators does _The 300_ rate? How many for _Top Gun?_ [/QUOTE] See, I think this alone shows a deep misunderstanding of homoeroticism. _Brokeback_ may be very, very gay, but it’s not particularly homoerotic. Homoeroticism is usually characterized by the subtext of latent desire and the fetishization of the male form. Subtext of latent desire means that there’s usually a lot of male bonding and a conspicuously low female presence. Sure, there may be a “chick lead”, but the real relationship in the film is dude-on-dude (even though they’re totally straight), even to the point where one (or more) of the males depicted fulfill stereotypically “female” traits (note: this doesn’t mean mincing and effiminate behavior, but that they act as surrogate-wives or girlfriends emotionally). The fetishization of the male form doesn’t mean “naked dudes”. National Geographic has naked women, but is rarely considered erotic. Nudity isn’t enough–it’s the way the camera dwells on the male body, fetishizing it (often gratuitously) that’s important. What’s the difference between the shower scene in _Carrie_ and _Dressed to Kill_? Both have naked chicks rinsing off. Same director, made only a few years apart. But one shoots the scene as innocent and transformative and one emphasizes the sensual aspect of soaping off. One has unsexy Sissy Spacek and one has uber-sexy Angie Dickinson. One’s erotic and one isn’t. What the camera chooses to emphasize (in lighting, angle, positioning of the actors, costuming), and how those shots are assembled for maximum effect, has a great deal to do with whether a scene comes off as Just Guys Being Guys and Homoeroticism 101. There may not be anything homoerotic about one guy goring another with a spear, but what’s the expression on the guy’s face doing the goring? What’s he wearing and what are we being forced (by virtue of camera placement) to see? Is he sweating? Exerting himself? These things make all the difference. Compare _Butch Cassidy_ and _The Sting_. Same leads, same director, both manly genres, but one’s definitely homoerotic and one isn’t, and it all has to do with tone and presentation. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/130 "2007-03-22T22:31:59Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] You mean “ridiculed in a good natured fashion with a taunt that just as easily could have been about the pimple on his forehead except we happened to be looking at his dong”? If you want to use it in that context, you’re removing any notion of “desire” or “lust” or “attraction” from the word “eroticize”. You might as well label a chlamydia exam homoerotic. [/QUOTE] But the thing is, guys often use humor as a defense mechanism against latent homosexual desire. “Just palling around” and such to defuse situations that may be laden with sexual tension. Hence, possibly (though not definitively) homoerotic. A chlamydia exam is, by definition, medical, clinical, and generally devoid of humor and subtext. Hence, un-homoerotic. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/131 "2007-03-22T22:34:17Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Jesus, I’ve been in high school showers surrounded by 20 male cocks, and young shiny, male bodies (let’s clarify NOW: this was when I was in High School), and as far as I was concerned, there was nothing homo-erotic about it. [/QUOTE] Statistically speaking, there was at least one guy in there who found it intensely homoerotic. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/132 "2007-03-22T22:42:57Z")
All I know is that I wish **lissener** and **Bryan Ekers** would stop yanking each other’s dicks. It’s way too homoerotic. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/133 "2007-03-23T00:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] What’s the difference between the shower scene in _Carrie_ and _Dressed to Kill_? Both have naked chicks rinsing off. Same director, made only a few years apart. But one shoots the scene as innocent and transformative and one emphasizes the sensual aspect of soaping off. One has unsexy Sissy Spacek and one has uber-sexy Angie Dickinson. One’s erotic and one isn’t. [/QUOTE] That depends on the viewer, too, doesn’t it? I mean, to a 14 year old catching _Carrie_ on uncensored cable, it’d sure be close enough. Hell, I’ve caught _myself_ salivating over exceptionally detailed technical manuals. Does that say more about the manual, or me? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/134 "2007-03-23T05:47:45Z")
Dude, a major character in _Tango & Cash_ was a female stripper! That movie’s deeply deeply straight. It’s not even strikingly _homosocial._ Let me see, here. I think we’re shouting past each other. > **[Homoeroticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoerotic)** > > Homoeroticism is sexual attraction between members of the same sex, including both male–male and female–female attraction. The concept differs from the concept of homosexuality: it refers specifically to the desire itself, which can be temporary, whereas "homosexuality" implies a more permanent state of identity or sexual orientation. It has been depicted or manifested throughout the history of the visual arts and literature and can also be found in performative forms; from theatre to the thea Th... > **[Homosociality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosocial)** > > In sociology, homosociality means same-sex friendships that are not of a romantic or sexual nature, such as friendship, mentorship, or others. The term was popularized by Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick in her discussion of male homosocial desire.: 138  Researchers who use the concept mainly do so to explain how men uphold their dominance in society. The opposite of homosocial is heterosocial, describing non-sexual relations with the opposite sex. The term homoaffectivity is used to refer to bonds and affe... > **[Machismo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo)** > > Machismo (/məˈtʃiːzmoʊ, mɑː-, -ˈtʃɪz-/; .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Spanish: \[maˈtʃismo\]; Portuguese: \[maˈʃiʒmu\]; from Spanish macho 'male' and -ismo) is the sense of being "manly" and self-reliant, a concept associated with "a strong sense of masculine pride: traditional masculinity". Machismo is a term originating in th Whil... If homoerotic refers to something created as homoeroticism, **300** looks like it would be, at least to the sort of people who snigger at the mere mention of the word “Greek.” But then again, it’s largely a big battle scene. Men fighting men to the bloody death, _en masse,_ is about machismo, courage, & a whole bunch of other things. That people find it sexy is a side effect. It’s a normal side effect. I appreciate a woman who can cook. That doesn’t mean that Rachael Ray has the most erotic show on TV. So 300 is not purely homoeroticism; unless the battle is an excuse, & its true primary function is to turn on the gays. And even then, it wouldn’t be homoeroticism in a strict sense. So, **is** it a gladiator movie for your gladius? The writer & director made a point of making the villains effeminate. The lead is played as straight, _contra_ received history. Boys, this movie is at least a little bit \*anti-\*gay. It’s a giant scream of “kill the freaks!” (& the freaks are “feminized” males) while also being macho & homosocial. If it becomes received as a “big gay movie,” that would be a matter of society’s interpretation of its imagery not jibing with the authorial intent. I expect that to happen, for reasons I’ll get into below. But it’s still a macho fantasy war movie by straights for straights. But apparently, by the personal definition some of you are using, it’s “homoerotic.” Do you pay your words extra? So why is it being characterized as “homoerotic”? Well, look at the OP. A straight guy who hates male homosexuality, calling a portrayal of exposed men’s bodies teh gay by calling it “homoerotic.” This jibes with how I’ve used the word used by straights, which means most of the time, 5%. So while this board (& you know, I laughed when I read the Conservapedia idea of the “Homosphere,” but, yeesh, female posters are assumed to be gay males here more when they talk about men they like, good grief, 5%) may think of homoerotic in terms of, “what I find hot,” I gotta tell you, in the larger society, it’s mostly an insult. From a comment on one of the youtube pages arguing for “gay Top Gun”: > [@russcarljohnson (1 day ago)](#): > > I remeber the good old days when you actually had to have sex with a man to be gay. Now your gay if you take your shirt off when it’s hot outside. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/135 "2007-03-23T05:57:49Z")
But, you know, you’re right & I’m wrong. They’re Greek, they’re half-naked, they’re in good shape, it’s practically gay porn. The women that are going to see it don’t count, because we all know like Socrates’ boys that women never count (do they even have brains?), & surely true straights would keep male bodies covered up rather than be turned on by each other’s bodies, because obviously even straight men are turned on by each other to the point of distraction & in denial, so It’s totally homo homo homo yo! It’s all for the \<5% of society that are the gay gay lads! And anyone who goes to see it because he’s into action movies & over-the-top heroism is gonna have to make a DC 30 Will save or be converted. :rolleyes: I’m done here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/136 "2007-03-24T03:02:38Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] Men fighting men to the bloody death, _en masse,_ is about machismo, courage, & a whole bunch of other things. That people find it sexy is a side effect. It’s a normal side effect. I appreciate a woman who can cook. That doesn’t mean that Rachael Ray has the most erotic show on TV. [/quote] Has anyone claimed that homoeroticism is the main purpose of the film? No. And I’m not really sure how to respond to the rest of this post, because you seem to have completely lost the ability to make any sort of coherent statement. I mean, what the hell does this even mean? > [@](#): > > So why is it being characterized as “homoerotic”? Well, look at the OP. A straight guy who hates male homosexuality, calling a portrayal of exposed men’s bodies teh gay by calling it “homoerotic.” This jibes with how I’ve used the word used by straights, which means most of the time, 5%. What? That’s… huh? 5% what? Who used what now? What the hell are you talking about? The only conclusion I can draw from this thread that makes any sort of sense is that you like looking at scantily clad men with large muscles, but resent people thinking you’re gay because of it. And somehow, that makes _me_ an asshole? Shit. Whatever, dude. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/137 "2007-03-24T06:19:01Z")
I just saw the film today, and before I even read this thread, my first reaction leaving the theater was to say to my SO, “I had no idea Gold’s Gym originated in Sparta, nor did I realize every Spartan packed between 8 1/2 - 10 inches.” ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735/138 "2007-03-24T11:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Lightray] And [Tango & Cash](http://imdb.com/title/tt0098439/) [/QUOTE] Naw, **Tango And Cash** had at least _one_ woman in it, whereas the eponymous sweaty half-naked muscleman in **Rambo III** only had a teenage boy and a father figure to bond with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-300-is-the-most-homoerotic-action-movie-ever-made/396735.md?page=6)