# Yes! Kenneth Lay is DEAD!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261 "2006-07-05T21:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/41 "2006-07-06T00:52:37Z")
I cannot shed a tear over Kenneth Lay being dead. The man screwed thousands, he is a special kind of corporate criminal. He led the people that caused rolling blackouts in California just to increase profits. He caused a load of loyal employees and investors to lose their retirement. His wife complained over how poor they were now from her Mansion. They are scum and his death should not be regretted except for what **Loopydude** mentioned. > [@Loopydude](#): > > I’m also sorry he died so soon. It would have been much more satisfying if he had spent a good long time in prison before he expired. Jim ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/42 "2006-07-06T00:55:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > …Is the world coming to an end? Only for poor Mr. Lay :(. Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul And I hope that you die And your death’ll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I’ll watch while you’re lowered Down to your deathbed And I’ll stand o’er your grave 'Til I’m sure that you’re deadCMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Blue-Sighted\_Shadow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecae2f/32.png) [@The\_Blue-Sighted\_Shadow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Blue-Sighted_Shadow)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/43 "2006-07-06T00:55:58Z")
I think these lyrics from _God’s Gonna Cut You Down_ suit Kenny-boy perfectly: Go tell that long tongue liar Go and tell that midnight rider Tell the rambler, The gambler, The back biter Tell 'em that God’s gonna cut 'em down Tell 'em that God’s gonna cut 'em down You can run on for a long time Run on for a long time Run on for a long time Sooner or later God’ll cut you down Sooner or later God’ll cut you down Well you may throw your rock and hide your hand Workin’ in the dark against your fellow man But as sure as God made black and white What’s down in the dark will be brought to the light Enron, and Ken Lay, ruined thousands of people’s livelihoods, retirement funds and lives, period. There are far too many people who will never recover from what he did. The worst is that he did it with a smiling face and a silver tongue, and left destruction in his wake, while he went on his merry way, because he got **his**. I do wish he could have done time in jail, preferably one that suffered rolling blackouts in summer, so he could sit and swelter in 100 degree heat with no A/C and no fans, just like we did in California that miserable summer. No amount of jail time could begin to make up for it, but it feels like he walked - he got away with it. He died a free man, surrounded by family, with most of his wealth intact. He’s beyond all suffering now. May he realize, in the afterlife, the harm he did in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/44 "2006-07-06T00:58:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are you quite sure about that? > > [I heard there was a bit more to it…](http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,338580,00.html) > > Regards, > Shodan Wow, that’s one of the most incredibly weak “Democrats had some contact with Enron too, and even lived on the same planet as them!” rejoinders ever. Are you really losing your edge this badly? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/45 "2006-07-06T01:00:47Z")
Seriously people: wishing someone dead, even wishing them harmed, just because they are bad and did bad things is one of the most twisted and vile things abouthe human psyche. What you should be wishing is that he came to understanding about what he did and sought to make amends as best he could. What, other than vicarious bloodlust, does him dying or being hurt accomplish? How does causing someone pain or hardship, all on its own purely for the sake of it, have anything to do with fixing or making right the pain of others? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/46 "2006-07-06T01:12:00Z")
> [@Bill Door](#): > > Do you think child rapists want to be child rapists? That they sit down and carefully consider the options and then go out and rape a child? Child rapists would give anything to not be what they are. They can’t help being what they are, any more than a rabid dog could. You might have to put a rabid dog down to protect society, but you don’t blame the dog, you just shoot it in the head and move on. No, _pedophiles_ can’t help being what they are. Child rapists (or any other sort of rapist) absolutely had a choice about what they are, and they made the wrong choice. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/47 "2006-07-06T01:20:48Z")
Come to think about it, Kenny-boy didn’t get very good value for his campaign donations, did he? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/48 "2006-07-06T01:25:45Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Wow, that’s one of the most incredibly weak “Democrats had some contact with Enron too, and even lived on the same planet as them!” rejoinders ever. Are you really losing your edge this badly? **Shodan** ’s never had much more of an edge than the average basketball… ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/49 "2006-07-06T01:29:31Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Seriously people: wishing someone dead, even wishing them harmed, just because they are bad and did bad things is one of the most twisted and vile things abouthe human psyche. What you should be wishing is that he came to understanding about what he did and sought to make amends as best he could. What, other than vicarious bloodlust, does him dying or being hurt accomplish? How does causing someone pain or hardship, all on its own purely for the sake of it, have anything to do with fixing or making right the pain of others? When he did what he did, he gave up his right to be called “human.” I’m glad he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/50 "2006-07-06T01:31:10Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Seriously people: wishing someone dead, even wishing them harmed, just because they are bad and did bad things is one of the most twisted and vile things abouthe human psyche. Now that’s just dumb. “Twisted and vile?” For feeling a measure of satisfaction that someone you don’t like came to a bad end? When you’ve done absolutely nothing to hasten that end, or effect them in any way? That’s twisted and vile? More so than, say, defrauding millions of people? Or being a child molester? Or a rapist? Or a terrorist? Or committing genocide? Or beating your spouse? Since when is thinking mean thoughts even in the same ballpark as any of those things, when it comes to twisted and vile? Hell, I wouldn’t even put it in the same ballpark as cutting someone off in traffic. If you want to talk about “twisted and vile,” you’re going to need to start with something that actually effects the real world, even in the least tangible manner imaginable. > [@](#): > > What you should be wishing is that he came to understanding about what he did and sought to make amends as best he could. Yeah, that’d be great. But I think I’d rather spend my time wishing I could fly like Superman. I think that one’s got a better chance of actually happening. But, hey, seriously, it’d be fantastic if, say, Osama bin Laden realized that being a murderous psychotic zealot wasn’t cool, and donated all of Al Qaeda’s money to the ADL. If that happened, I’d be fucking ecstatic. But barring that, I’ll be perfectly happy to learn that he’s simply snuffed it. > [@](#): > > What, other than vicarious bloodlust, does him dying or being hurt accomplish? How does causing someone pain or hardship, all on its own purely for the sake of it, have anything to do with fixing or making right the pain of others? It doesn’t. So what? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/51 "2006-07-06T01:32:39Z")
> [@Bill Door](#): > > Do you think child rapists want to be child rapists? That they sit down and carefully consider the options and then go out and rape a child? Child rapists would give anything to not be what they are. They can’t help being what they are, any more than a rabid dog could. You might have to put a rabid dog down to protect society, but you don’t blame the dog, you just shoot it in the head and move on. I gotta say … I haven’t seen many testimonials offered up by child predators attesting to the fact that they’d give anything not to want to mess up their victims’ lives. A few, sure, but not a hell of a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/52 "2006-07-06T01:32:58Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I just wonder what kid of inside dirt about Bush he was offering in exchange for a lighter sentence made Rove and Cheney decide they would be better off with him having a “heart attack” I’m glad to see I’m not the only person around who’s first thought that Mr. Lay’s unexpected demise had Mafia hit-like overtones… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/53 "2006-07-06T01:34:54Z")
> [@](#): > > He can be faulted for poor business behavior, but he never deliberately intended to harm anyone. Actually, I’ll rise to the occasion and defend this one… kind of. Ken Lay was an absent CEO. There is no evidence that he gave any of the orders that led to Andrew Fastow setting up the SPE’s, no evidence that he (or Skilling or Fastow for that matter) had anything to do with the California debacle (Eichenwald, McLean, and Smith all agree that it was solely the work of Tim Belden and his crew in Portland), and all the evidence points to a man who, when he took over for Skilling, had really no idea as to the state of Enron’s debt position or operations. Transcripts of board meetings show that Ken Lay’s favored method of vetting any proposal was asking if other people signed off on it. :rolleyes: He is totally to blame for taking his eye off the ball, allowing more venal men to do more venal things. His conviction, impoverishment, (and eventual punishment, administered today) is right on the mark because he _was_ the person in charge and didn’t take his fiduciary responsibility seriously, but as for the story/belief that Ken Lay purposely set up a criminal enterprise called “Enron” (the idea that’s featured in the documentary) - that’s not correct. I bet, in many ways, he was just as shocked as anybody as to what happened, and that shock of how he was “betrayed” (in his mind) by Skilling, Fastow, Mark, Pei, Glisan, et al lead to his death. He had lost everything: his fame, his fortune, his legacy, his name, his reputation, his future, all because he left it to others to do their jobs w/o bothering him. And, in an odd way… Ken Lay died of a broken heart. Skilling on the other hand… he won’t kick out like Lay did. I’ll put $5 on it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/54 "2006-07-06T01:34:56Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > What, other than vicarious bloodlust, does him dying or being hurt accomplish? How does causing someone pain or hardship, all on its own purely for the sake of it, have anything to do with fixing or making right the pain of others? Actually, I want to readdress that: who said anything about _causing_ him harm. No one here has said that they wished they could have personally killed him: they’ve just said they’re glad it happened. There’s a world of difference there. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/55 "2006-07-06T01:42:35Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I just wonder what kid of inside dirt about Bush he was offering in exchange for a lighter sentence made Rove and Cheney decide they would be better off with him having a “heart attack” > > ::shines tinfoil hat:: > > only mostly kidding… He had the coronary when Dick Cheney called him up and asked to come hunting with him… ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/56 "2006-07-06T01:48:42Z")
I join with the others who want an open casket and a DNA test on the body. I’m sort of glad he passed before he went to prison, where we would have to endure many Martha-esque stories about country club prison facilities. Notice how the ads are for Prisoner Care Packages and How to Survive Cheating… ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/57 "2006-07-06T01:52:10Z")
The sad thing is that Lay really made a bad decision. I’m not talking about the one where they decided to screw everyone and his pooch. I’m talking about the decision Lay made when Sherron Watkins first came to him and told him that the house of cards was falling down. IIRC, she suggested that they bring in an outside auditor or attorney and bring the whole thing out in public. If Lay had chosen to do that, it is quite possible that Enron would have taken a big hit and the stock price would have fallen, but it would still be in business and Lay would have been hailed as a hero for “discovering” the evildoings in his company. A sad, sad, sorry state of affairs all the way around. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/58 "2006-07-06T01:58:13Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The sad thing is that Lay really made a bad decision. I’m not talking about the one where they decided to screw everyone and his pooch. I’m talking about the decision Lay made when Sherron Watkins first came to him and told him that the house of cards was falling down. IIRC, she suggested that they bring in an outside auditor or attorney and bring the whole thing out in public. > > If Lay had chosen to do that, it is quite possible that Enron would have taken a big hit and the stock price would have fallen, but it would still be in business and Lay would have been hailed as a hero for “discovering” the evildoings in his company. No way in hell. Enron had $40 billion of debt to support, over 60% of it hid in the SPE’s set up by Fastow, et al. I think the about of “hidden debt” was around $26 billion. That was the eventual problem: Enron was a bad business that didn’t generate much cash so it had to support itself on debt. It was _such_ a bad business that they had to keep rolling over their debt/assets. On a more personal level, it was as if the company got caught in a debt spiral and started breaking the law to get out of it. But the reason why is was in the debt spiral to begin with was because Enron had horrible cash flows. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/59 "2006-07-06T01:59:39Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Holy fucking shit-I actually agree with you on something! Is the world coming to an end? I guess those smart pills I sent you really worked. Good thing I got the super-super-duper-strength. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/60 "2006-07-06T02:07:08Z")
> [@FisherQueen](#): > > But I didn’t wish him DEAD. That’s just wrong. And also very tacky. What about wishing him ALIVE. He chose the cowards way out. Justice was not served. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261.md?page=4)