# Yes! Kenneth Lay is DEAD!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261 "2006-07-05T21:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/101 "2006-07-06T17:40:27Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Why limit it to violence? That’s just prejudice. Frankly, I can think of no more evil act than this: projecting the image of TRUST, and then abusing that trust. That’s what Enron did – thousands of employees & stockholders had their life savings destroyed, and millions of California taxpayers are still paying for the damage Enron did to our economy. It’s flat out ECONOMIC RAPE, on a massive, global scale. Evil, to me, is doing harm to others. Whether that harm is physical violence, or not, it’s still evil. Many people have parents or spouses who have been emotionally and psychologically abusive, yet never laid a finger on them. Does that mean that emotional and psychological abuse isn’t evil? Stealing from people who trusted you, then _laughing_ about the elderly and the weak suffering because of something you did, if that’s not evil, then I don’t know what is. Causing countless people to suffer rolling blackouts during the hottest months of the year, possibly endangering lives, stealing everything that a person has worked for their entire lives, leaving them destitute, while you whine about the loss of a _vacation home_, well, to me, that’s evil. Lay hurt a hell of a lot of people, and had no remorse. Worse than that-he tried to paint himself as the victim and showed glee at their suffering. And to blame the victims for trusting their employers, well, that’s just sick. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/102 "2006-07-06T17:54:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, what you’re saying is, any moral imperfection on my behalf, renders me incapable of judging the moral character of another person? Correct. ---
**Author:** ![Runestar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@Runestar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Runestar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/103 "2006-07-06T17:56:55Z")
I do remember reading that the court considered Lay enough of a flight risk that he was required to remain in the courtroom until a family member retrieved Lay’s passport from his home and turned it into the court. Don’t know if that explains why he was allowed to go to Aspen…maybe he had the court’s permission for that. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/104 "2006-07-06T18:03:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And to blame the victims for trusting their employers, well, that’s just sick. ? I thought I’d read this all the way through but maybe I missed something. Where was someone doing what you claim? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/105 "2006-07-06T18:05:47Z")
> [@wring](#): > > not a lawyer, but work w/offenders for a living. It’s not at all unusual for a non violent offender to be out on bond until sentencing. IME, they **are** often, however, under a form of supervision, having to report in to a probation agent (typically) every now and then. What I **do** find unusual is that he was vacationing in a different state. IME, travel to other states under those circumstances is only allowed w/specific permission. I also wonder why his assets weren’t frozen because of the pending litigation. so there (to me) should have been two different sources of “no, you can’t do that” > > I do not dance on his grave, am pissed that he never had to spend a day in jail. morally bankrupt. I agree. But why do we have that law. If someone’s been proven guilty and we know he’s going away for years, what’s with the “well, go have yourself a nice final vacation”? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/106 "2006-07-06T18:13:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree. But why do we have that law. If someone’s been proven guilty and we know he’s going away for years, what’s with the “well, go have yourself a nice final vacation”? it’s not so they can have a vacation. Prior to sentencing, (IME, IMJ), the inmate would be on the ‘county’s’ dime. At the local county jail, there’s the ‘unsentenced’ population (folks waiting for trial, folks convicted/pled, but not sentenced), the ‘sentenced’ populaton those who have been sentenced to a term in the county jail. Both of these types of folks are teh county’s responsability. They also have some inmates from other counties (paid for at a per diem rate by the other county) and some parolees on detainer (paid for by the state at a per diem rate). As soon as some one is sentenced to prison, they become the states responsability (ie money). so, especially in a case where the person would be sentenced several months later and the public isn’t particularly at risk for additional criminal behavior (as was probably considered in the case here), the local jail may have opted to not fill that particular bed w/a non violent offender, vs. some one else. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/107 "2006-07-06T18:17:00Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > ? > > I thought I’d read this all the way through but maybe I missed something. Where was someone doing what you claim? No one said so specifically, but the whole, “Well, they were stupid to have invested in their own company, why didn’t they diversify, etc”. What difference does it make now? Not to mention that for Lay to take advantage of stupid people who trusted him makes him even worse. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/108 "2006-07-06T18:19:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Problem is, it was all a lie. A great big scam. And when the house of cards began to crumble, the people who dutifully invested their money as instructed, were locked out of their 401(k) portfolios, as the stock price plummetted from 32 dollars to 9 cents a share. Look, if you’re going to quote numbers (at least on this message board), at least get them right. When the lockout began on November 2nd, ENE was at $13.50. When the lockout ended, it was at $9.50. And there wasn’t anything “dutiful” about their investments - they weren’t required to keep their 401(k) contributions in ENE, nor were they instructed to buy Enron stock. Nor was the lockout the doings of Enron - it was required by the company that administered the accounts. Let’s repeat that: Enron didn’t manage the accounts, another company did. Lastly, note that the employees didn’t lose their “401(k)'s” - they lost the Enron-invested portion of those 401(k)'s. The rest of the 401(k) value that wasn’t Enron-related still held. One correction: further research shows that ENE matched 3% in 401(k)'s by using a special class of stock that couldn’t be sold until the employee was 50 (meaning that any employee over the age of 50 has no excuse for not dumping the shit). However, only the matching portion was in this stock, the employees money could be used however - and, like all 401(k) plans, Enron had the usual options: bonds, balanced, high growth, corporate stock, etc. [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/608804/posts](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/608804/posts) Lastly, over 60% of all Enron employees 401(k)'s was invested in company stock. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/109 "2006-07-06T18:29:27Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Correct. So, because I (hypothetically) cut some guy off in traffic this morning, I am incapable of feeling that Adoph Hitler was evil? This to you is a logical and practical moral system? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/110 "2006-07-06T18:46:18Z")
> [@kittenblue](#): > > I join with the others who want an open casket and a DNA test on the body. Headline on today’s [New York Post](http://www.nypost.com/): “CHECK HE’S IN IT”! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/111 "2006-07-06T18:46:49Z")
I’m not certain that you and **Rigamarole** are operating with identical definitions of the term “judging the moral character of,” **Miller**. ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/112 "2006-07-06T18:57:37Z")
For quite a few years I was the plant manager for a $160 million dollar operation. (Obviously minuscule compared to Enron.) And I can tell you for a fact that it is absolutely impossible to know everything that is going on. There is no way I could know the details of what marketing, materials, accounting, engineering, etc. were doing. For example, I had to fire the plant controller because he socked away 3 million dollars of what should have been profit. He did this to cover his ass should the plant experience an inventory shortage which would have shown that his costing system was inadequate. The only reason he was caught is the plant was chosen for a semi random audit. My boss and the rest of the corporate officers did not hold this against me because they knew there is no way I could have known it was occurring. And yet if for some unknown reason this would have gone before a jury I could easily see myself going to jail. And keep in mind this was an infinitesimally tiny operation compared to what Lay was suppose to watch over. I’m not saying he was innocent of all charges, but given that he seemed to be a glad handing, hale fellow well met, and not a technocrat type of manager I can easily believe he didn’t know all the stuff that the prosecution said he should have known. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/113 "2006-07-06T18:57:50Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Correct. I second **Miller’s** cry of bullshit on that assertion. Oh and the NY Times editorial page (of all places!) has the ugliest whitewash of Lay I’ve seen in a while: > [@](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/06/opinion/06thurs4.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/06/opinion/06thurs4.html) > > An American symbol was extinguished in court; it was a man who died yesterday. Mr. Lay was fairly convicted of his crimes, but he was also a father and grandfather, whose family mourns his passing. He was headed for the penitentiary, but that did not have to be the end for him. He would have had an opportunity to use his personal skills to help other prisoners. And at 64 years, he might have had another shot at that third act after all. Michael Milken has devoted much of his resources to medical research since serving his sentence. What Ken Lay might have done we will never know. Chances are it would have been interesting. Yeah let’s see him “help” prisoners the way he helped his employees. What a tragedy his death deprived more people of the opportunity to lose money to his amoral scams. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/114 "2006-07-06T19:08:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Now that’s just dumb. “Twisted and vile?” For feeling a measure of satisfaction that someone you don’t like came to a bad end? Yes. For feeling satisfaction that anyone came “to a bad end” (as opposed to a merely ironic or lesson-teaching one) No matter how evil someone is, there is no purpose to wishing more evil done to them just for the satisfaction factor of it. What we want is less evil in the world, not the same exact amount of evil, plus sometimes bad people get gang-raped in the shower too. What’s the point of that? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/115 "2006-07-06T19:23:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, because I (hypothetically) cut some guy off in traffic this morning, I am incapable of feeling that Adoph Hitler was evil? This to you is a logical and practical moral system? Taking “judge not…” to the Nth degree. **Apos** , people judge all the time. It’s what we do. _No one_ is perfect or morally pure and very few people claim to be. But we can recognize the actions of someone like Ken Lay, the repercussions caused, and his lack of remorse at all the pain and destruction he caused, and reach the conclusion that he was an evil man. Buying his wife a mink coat and reading to his grandkids doesn’t make him a better person. Telling people “don’t judge” is flat out impractical. You may as well say “don’t think.” Wanting to see someone who has done this amount of damage and has shown no remorse punished is a very human response. Not for a “satisfaction factor,” but because of a sense that something that wrongs such a large part of the population wrongs us all, and some punishment should be meted out. It’s outrageous that anyone be able to treat any one person, much less several thousand, in this manner and then never know a day’s punishment. The fact that he’s died shouldn’t matter. What he did was wrong, and I’m not going to lie and say it’s okay, the poor man is dead and we should be respectful. He doesn’t deserve my respect. If you’re capable of looking at this man’s actions and shrugging it off because it’s the nice thing to do, then good for you. But as long as there is a society, there will be the idea that people who break the rules (laws) to the detriment of society should be punished. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/116 "2006-07-06T19:23:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No one said so specifically, but the whole, “Well, they were stupid to have invested in their own company, why didn’t they diversify, etc”. You’ve twice now mischaracterized the content of the discussion. Employees were smart to have invested in such a well-performing stock but, like with any stock in any company’s plan, they’d have been better served to have diversified to a degree commensurate with the amount of risk they’re willing to accept. Read **JohnT** ’s post #108. Enron employees had a wide variey of vehicles to invest in, from agressive stocks to less risky bonds, etc. It’s a risk to invest only in stocks. It’s riskier still to invest in just one stock. And to have all your savings in only one stock when you’re approaching retirement probably borders on foolhardy. Lay was a liar surrounded by dishonest men. I cut them no slack. But no one made the employees that lost everything put all their money in a single company stock. They made that decision, for whatever reason, THEMSELVES, against all advice you’ll find in any knowledgable money management guidelines. Yes, Lay cost them their jobs, their livelyhood. He’s a legitimate whipping boy for a slew of injustices. You can scream at him for a heck of a lot of things but the employees that lost everything need to accept some personal responsibility in mismanaging their own savings. > [@](#): > > What difference does it make now? Huh? It’s in the past so don’t mention it? I’m somewhat hopeful that others elsewhere learned something from this whole fiasco. There will be other Enron-like companies. Investors and employees really shouldn’t forget that. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/117 "2006-07-06T19:36:20Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > You may as well (telll people) “don’t think.” what better way to explain how things are today? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/118 "2006-07-06T19:47:43Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Yes. For feeling satisfaction that anyone came “to a bad end” (as opposed to a merely ironic or lesson-teaching one) Okay, clarify two things for me, here: First, it’s okay to be happy when bad things happen to people we don’t like, so long as it’s not _too_ bad? What’s the cutoff point for that moral side-step, exactly? Second, since you’ve just affirmed that being glad that someone has died is, indeed, “one of the **most** twisted and vile things” a human can do, it seems to me that you’re saying that being glad that, say, a rapist/murderer had died is exactly (or almost) as bad as _being_ a rapist/murderer. Am I misunderstanding you, or is this indeed the position you are advocating in this thread? > [@](#): > > No matter how evil someone is, there is no purpose to wishing more evil done to them just for the satisfaction factor of it. What we want is less evil in the world, not the same exact amount of evil, plus sometimes bad people get gang-raped in the shower too. What’s the point of that? You seem to be confusing “having a point” with “being moral.” Taking satisfaction in the death of an evil person doesn’t have a “point.” So what? Why does that make it an invalid response? Why does that make it “twisted and vile?” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/119 "2006-07-08T21:36:27Z")
> [@Klaatu](#): > > Yep, maybe sleeping there. Last I heard, (and this is subject to update, I could be wrong) 20,000 ex-Enron employees might get a check for $3500 each from some insurance funds that apparently weren’t looted. > > Hell of a retirement there. Probably doesn’t even pay the monthly wages of all the hired help in the Aspen house Lay died in. Any enron employee that lost their entire retirment is suffering from the stupidity of not diversifying themselves. That doesn’t change the fact they have been victims of a crime, and no, I don’t blame them for the loss of the funds they _had_ invested in the company’s programs. However, that doesn’t change the fact that smart people do not put all their eggs in one basket. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261/120 "2006-07-08T22:04:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > First, it’s okay to be happy when bad things happen to people we don’t like, so long as it’s not _too_ bad? What’s the cutoff point for that moral side-step, exactly? You misread: the other ends I specified were positive: they involved things happening that ultimately taught lessons rather than simply inflicted pain to someone you don’t like. > [@](#): > > Second, since you’ve just affirmed that being glad that someone has died is, indeed, “one of the **most** twisted and vile things” a human can do, it seems to me that you’re saying that being glad that, say, a rapist/murderer had died is exactly (or almost) as bad as _being_ a rapist/murderer. Am I misunderstanding you, or is this indeed the position you are advocating in this thread? I guess I meant twisted and vile class of thoughts, not actions. Obviously actions are way worse than thoughts. > [@](#): > > You seem to be confusing “having a point” with “being moral.” Taking satisfaction in the death of an evil person doesn’t have a “point.” So what? Why does that make it an invalid response? Why does that make it “twisted and vile?” Taking pleasure in the pain and suffering of another person just because we don’t like them or something they did, let alone pleasure in something that basically only causes pain and suffering to that persons otherwise innocent loved ones (like their family) seems to be at the root of all manner of sadistic impulses inour society. It undergirds what I think is a very poor understannding of everything from morality to compassion and how to understand or deal with evil people and evil actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-kenneth-lay-is-dead/363261.md?page=7)