# Yes means Yes, dumb idea. Women should quit lying about 'rape."
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 30, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922 "2014-09-30T01:00:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/201 "2014-10-02T23:40:14Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Not having sex with a drunk person who you know would probably regret the decision is base line decent human behavior. We do not take advantage of drunk people. If it were acceptable to do so, there is nothing should prevent a woman from cleaning out a man’s bank account (or his house, selling his car, selling his blood or sperm, etc.,) if in a drunken state he gave her the information to access it. However I imagine all of you guys would consider that theft.
I might feel differently if he literally begged for her to take all of his financial information.
No, for real though, I think if you’re sober enough to beg for sex you better be willing to face the consequences if you do end up deciding to have sex. I don’t think people get a pass on shit behavior if they’ve been drinking and they sure as hell don’t get to file false criminal charges against their boyfriend if they do something they regret.
Is that really so fucking controversial?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/202 "2014-10-02T23:42:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Actually, women didn’t work hard to get men to shake their hands. They worked hard to get men to keep their hands off them. It is not a gesture of respect. It is attempt to force the woman to submit to them. If it were about respect very few men would throw hissy fits worthy of the worst spoiled brats over being expected to ask permission before initiating such a gesture. If it were about respect asking permission would be automatic.
I thought we already got over this. The thing is, **ZPG Zealot** , there are cultural expectations that are different and even _opposite_ of yours regarding handshakes in some places in the world. Some women actually would be offended by asking permission to shake hands! This is a real thing – not something made up.
Some real human women disagree with you, **ZPG**. It doesn’t make your customs wrong, but their customs aren’t wrong either.
So it’s appropriate in some communities to offer a handshake and _not ask permission_ – that is the _only option_ among some communities to avoid offense. This is not fiction – there might actually be customs and standards that you aren’t familiar with on earth.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/203 "2014-10-02T23:42:44Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#):
>
> **Aanamika** believes it is. Why are you not respecting HER beliefs?
Well, she’s not respecting mine and women with her beliefs make life hard for women that don’t want to be abused by men. There’s a folk saying in America, “You’re right to swing your fist, end where my nose begins.” Another person’s right to fling their arm out into the air end when it touches another person.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/204 "2014-10-02T23:43:44Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> By all means, please continue to tell us men how we should think.
I’m actually far more concerned that she’s telling **women** how they should think.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/205 "2014-10-02T23:45:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Well, she’s not respecting mine and women with her beliefs make life hard for women that don’t want to be abused by men.
How does her different beliefs about handshakes fail to respect your beliefs? Is she not free to prefer handshakes, and is she not free to feel offense if someone asks her if she would like to shake hands?
> [@](#):
>
> Another person’s right to fling their arm out into the air end when it touches another person.
Of course. Luckily, no one has advocated forcibly shaking anyone’s hands here.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/206 "2014-10-02T23:49:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I’m actually far more concerned that she’s telling **women** how they should think.
It’s not like they’re going to listen. When was the last time **ZPG Zealot** persuaded anybody of anything around here?
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/207 "2014-10-02T23:50:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> It’s not like they’re going to listen. When was the last time **ZPG Zealot** persuaded anybody of anything around here?
Well… do you mean that she intended to? Or just any old persuading? 😛
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/208 "2014-10-02T23:52:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> Well… do you mean that she intended to? Or just any old persuading? 😛
Should’ve seen that coming.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/209 "2014-10-02T23:53:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> How does her different beliefs about handshakes fail to respect your beliefs? Is she not free to prefer handshakes, and is she not free to feel offense if someone asks her if she would like to shake hands?
>
> Of course. Luckily, no one has advocated forcibly shaking anyone’s hands here.
She is perfectly free to offer her hands. She can feel offense if she wants to because someone actually cares enough to be polite to her. What she should not be free to do is try to destroy a safeguard designed to protect other women from abuse and harm. She does not have the right to advance her own feelings of being “one of the boys” at the expense of another woman’s right to feel safe in the world. It’s like locking your door at night. Just because some people feel safe sleeping with every door and window opened doesn’t mean everyone else should be forced to.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/210 "2014-10-02T23:56:16Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> I might feel differently if he literally begged for her to take all of his financial information.
>
> No, for real though, I think if you’re sober enough to beg for sex you better be willing to face the consequences if you do end up deciding to have sex. I don’t think people get a pass on shit behavior if they’ve been drinking and they sure as hell don’t get to file false criminal charges against their boyfriend if they do something they regret.
>
> Is that really so fucking controversial?
What if she begged him to shoot her? You know she’s been depressed, she wants to end it all, but suicide is like a sin in her religion. Would you let her male friend off the hook for murder? Once again, in a civilized society we do not take advantage of drunk people. Is that really so fucking controversial?
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### Author:  [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/211 "2014-10-02T23:57:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> I have had both of the situations happen to me. I have also had jerks throw hissy fits because I put on a glove. A gloved handshake is sometimes all there is to a business deal in my world. I have never extended my ungloved hand to any man except my 1st and 2nd husbands at the altar while vowing not have sexual relations with anyone other than them.
Damn, you are some kinda lady. And I do mean _lady._
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/212 "2014-10-02T23:58:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> She is perfectly free to offer her hands. She can feel offense if she wants to because someone actually cares enough to be polite to her. What she should not be free to do is try to destroy a safeguard designed to protect other women from abuse and harm.
What safeguard is she destroying? She’s saying that she prefers if men offer her a handshake and don’t ask. That’s the expected custom and standard in some communities. It doesn’t mean men can’t ask, but it means that if men want to _minimize the risk of offense_ in those communities, they should not ask.
This is just a math problem. How do I minimize my risk of causing offense to a woman? In my community, the lowest risk solution is to offer a handshake without asking. In some other communities, the lowest risk is to ask. And in others, it’s to not even ask or offer at all. But there are some communities in which the best solution to minimize the risk of offense is to offer the hand without asking.
How do these facts that exist in some communities “destroy a safeguard”?
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/213 "2014-10-02T23:58:40Z")
ZPG, you said sometimes you shake hands while gloved. Please explain how being gloved is “a safeguard designed to protect other women from abuse and harm”. I doubt that thin veneer of cloth is doing much to protect you unless they’ve coated their hands in anthrax or something.
Edit: My point isn’t that your culture is wrong. It’s that it’s a cultural thing, it’s not a perfectly logical advancement of human thought.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/214 "2014-10-03T00:02:35Z")
The standard of politeness in the whole world is not “this is what is polite to **ZPG Zealot** ” – standards of politeness differ from community to community. So while it’s polite to ask before offering a hand shake in some communities, in other communities it’s **impolite** to ask, and **impolite** to do anything but offer a handshake without asking.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/215 "2014-10-03T00:07:36Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> What if she begged him to shoot her? You know she’s been depressed, she wants to end it all, but suicide is like a sin in her religion. Would you let her male friend off the hook for murder? Once again, in a civilized society we do not take advantage of drunk people. Is that really so fucking controversial?
He didn’t! He didn’t take advantage of anyone and you’re coming out with fists flying about what an asshole you think he is. It’s completely undeserved.
Taking advantage of a person who is drunk is a shit thing to do. It does not absolve the drunk person of responsibility for his or her own behavior. And anyway, that is not what happened in this case. Arguably she was taking advantage of him as by his own admission he was at least if not more drunk than she was.
I’m a feminist too, ya know. But I happen to think placing the entire onus of responsibility for sex on the guy is counterproductive to women’s equality. If a woman wants to have sex she should fucking own it including all the consequences and potential regret. That’s what adults do. They make decisions and they live with them.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/216 "2014-10-03T00:38:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> It is not a gesture of respect. It is attempt to force the woman to submit to them.
So when men extend hands to shake hands at business meetings, it is also an attempt to force the other \*\*man \*\*to submit to them, too?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/217 "2014-10-03T01:36:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> So when men extend hands to shake hands at business meetings, it is also an attempt to force the other \*\*man \*\*to submit to them, too?
And let’s not even get into the well-established professional custom of two women in a business context shaking each **other** ’s hands. That might just make **ZPGZ** ’s head splode.
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/218 "2014-10-03T01:51:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> And let’s not even get into the well-established professional custom of two women in a business context shaking each **other** ’s hands. That might just make **ZPGZ** ’s head splode.
Frankly, I’m just glad she isn’t somewhere where it’s customary for acquaintances to kiss cheeks hello. That headsplosion could be on the order of several Hiroshimas.
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### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/219 "2014-10-03T02:35:20Z")
In some cultures it is considered taboo for a woman to post on the internet. As long as ZPG continues to post, she is saying that she doesn’t have to respect those people, so why should people respect hers?
If she really wants us to consider respecting her culture, she should stop posting.
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### Author:  [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/220 "2014-10-03T02:49:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> This has nothing to do with being Roma. It has to do with believing that a woman has the right to control who touches her body and that she has the riight not to be publically intimidated into letting someone touch her without permission. It’s called feminism.
>
> Now as far as Roma are concerned, generally speaking, Roma who follow strict marime (religious codes of purity and cleanliness) aren’t going to come into physical contact with someone outside their family or tribe regardless of gender unless it is necessary to save a life. In a group situation, if a Roma man knew the non-Roma men very well, friends for many years, the men might hug. As a stranger you would be introduced. You would be treated politely, but unless the Roma men were very ill behaved young men (the type that you wouldn’t want even thinking about touching you) to show respect they will not touch you unless you give them permission before witnesses.
So why is it rude for a man to extend his hand to you, but not rude for him to not extend his hand to me? I should understand differing cultures, but you don’t have to?
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