# Yes means Yes, dumb idea. Women should quit lying about 'rape."
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 30, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922 "2014-09-30T01:00:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/61 "2014-09-30T15:37:31Z")
Before I have an opinion on this I would have to know the statistics on how often lies and actual crimes happen and the severity of the repercussions of each
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/62 "2014-09-30T15:59:43Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> I remember at least one high-profile case over here where the female had most definitely and in no uncertain terms asked the male to fuck her, similar to the cock-grabbing virgin story above but without the virginity (not that that matters) and she most definitely did regret it the following morning, and the key plank of her argument in court was that the male should have known perfectly well that when sober she considered him a hopeless nerd unworthy of the right time of day let alone anything physical, hence it was rape.
>
> The jury, being meanies, declined to agree.
I’d be very interested to hear more about that case.
This was a rape trial? I don’t know very much about English (English, right?) criminal procedure, but it couldn’t have been a criminal case if the alleged victim was making arguments in court, right?
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/63 "2014-09-30T16:00:35Z")
> [@JesterX](#):
>
> “Horny” implies the person wanted sex. However being drunk means a person has low resistance and are easily pressed into sex. That’s not the same as wanting it. I agree with the law.
I don’t think it’s fair to hold the woman to one standard (“I was drunk and can’t be held accountable for my low resistance”) and the man to another (“I was drunk too! I’m supposed to have judgment to know her wanting sex was on account of inebriation and not because I’m Go’ds gift to women?”). Just arguing academically. I was never in this particular situation, and am way too old and too light a drinker for this to be a realistic possibility. It’s just a tough situation from both sides.
[QUOTE= Hentor the Barbarian]
Kimstu, well there was that one incident, but that involved a chifferobe.
[/quote]
I got that!
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/64 "2014-09-30T16:06:53Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> I don’t think it’s fair to hold the woman to one standard (“I was drunk and can’t be held accountable for my low resistance”) and the man to another (“I was drunk too! I’m supposed to have judgment to know her wanting sex was on account of inebriation and not because I’m Go’ds gift to women?”).
“Accountable for my low resistance” is one of those phrases that sort of drops out and becomes extremely deep when you think about it.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/65 "2014-09-30T16:26:17Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> I don’t think it’s fair to hold the woman to one standard (“I was drunk and can’t be held accountable for my low resistance”) and the man to another (“I was drunk too! I’m supposed to have judgment to know her wanting sex was on account of inebriation and not because I’m Go’ds gift to women?”).
Well, leave out the gender-roles aspect of it for a minute, since after all it does sometimes happen that men are raped and that women are rapists (and the two circumstances don’t always coincide).
I think the point is that it’s fair to have one standard for **being able to defend oneself against rape** and a different, stricter, standard for **being able to stop oneself from raping somebody**. It’s not unreasonable that the legal accountability for a crime should be on the person in the position of actually committing the crime.
Likewise, if a pedestrian is so drunk that they’re kneeling on the sidewalk puking in the gutter and not paying any attention to traffic, that’s unwise. But if a _driver_ is so drunk that they inadvertently drive up on the curb and kill the puking pedestrian, that’s not only unwise but a crime.
Even though the driver didn’t mean to hurt the pedestrian, and the driver’s drunkenness impaired their ability to properly look out for the pedestrian, and the pedestrian’s own drunkenness impaired their ability to look out for themselves, the responsibility for the outcome still rests with the driver, i.e., the party who actually inflicted the harm.
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### Author:  [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/66 "2014-09-30T16:38:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> How about a combination of the above? Meaning B should have known that A was incapable of consent because they were unconscious, asleep, or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol etc., but the reason B didn’t appreciate this was because they were themselves incapacitated by drugs or alcohol to the point where they were incapable of accurately assessing A’s ability to meaningfully consent in a similar condition?
>
> On a broader note: suppose A and B are equally incapacitated by drugs or alcohol and have sex. Is there anything about the law - or about rape law generally - which says the man has raped the woman, versus the woman raping the man? Or both raping each other? (Not sure what you would do in such a case.)
Refer to **Kobal2** ’s quote of the text. Explain how a man that is fully asleep, unconscious, or unable to communicate (at all) able to have sex (or attempt to have sex).
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### Author:  [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/67 "2014-09-30T16:39:33Z")
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> Yeah, what a draconian law, messing with my freedom to have sex with sleeping and incapacitated chicks. Fucking fascists.
I’m fairly certain that’s has always been illegal and has nothing to do with this law. I think this law deals with the previously mentioned “low resistance” angle which has a lot grey area.
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/68 "2014-09-30T16:39:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Well, leave out the gender-roles aspect of it for a minute, since after all it does sometimes happen that men are raped and that women are rapists (and the two circumstances don’t always coincide).
If we are to leave gender out of it, I’d feel better if there was a cite for a drunk man having sex with a woman, then declaring the next day that it was rape.
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### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/69 "2014-09-30T16:44:05Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#):
>
> Refer to **Kobal2** ’s quote of the text. Explain how a man that is fully asleep, unconscious, or unable to communicate (at all) able to have sex (or attempt to have sex).
You left out the middle clause, which is the relevant one here.
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/70 "2014-09-30T16:45:09Z")
Which woman that “declared” that it was rape are we comparing this to?
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/71 "2014-09-30T16:56:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Two thoughts. First, is it fair to state that this is a reversal of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ WRT date rape? The accused has the burden to establish proof of affirmative consent, rather than the accuser having the burden to establish that they did not want the sex that happened. If there is reasonable doubt regarding the affirmative consent, is that grounds for a rape conviction?
>
> Second, absent BPC’s potentially creepy and illegal recording of sexual encounters, how IS an accused expected to provide this proof, unless there were multiple witnesses?
No, this does not change the burden of proof. It just changes what is being proved beyond a reasonable doubt (from “the accuser said no” to “the accuser did not say yes.”
Yes, like all rape cases it is hard to prove. Doesn’t mean you don’t try to catch them.
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/72 "2014-09-30T16:58:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> But who will speak for the poor horny guys who like to have sex with drunk girls? What about them?!? Without inebriated girls, who are these guys supposed to penetrate?
A blow-up doll filled with beer?
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> _Why are young women today supposedly “regretting” consensual sex so much?_ I had plenty of consensual sex back in my yoof in the '80s and '90s, both drunk and sober, and the amount of regret I feel about most of it is and has always been totally nonexistent. Even the regrettable bits never inspired me to think “_hey, what this situation needs to make it better is a hefty dose of false criminal charges_”.
If the media are to be believed, there is a lot more anonymous sex and so-called “hooking up” (what we used to call “one-night stands”) than there was a generation ago. It happened that I went to college in the late 80s, when AIDS was a death sentence-- lots of people dying in their 20s and 30s from it, and the treatment horizon looked bleak. There was also no way to test for the virus itself at the time, only the antibodies, so you be infected for a while, able to infect others, and not know it, even if you went and got tested. It scared a lot of people away from hooking up. Not that everyone was necessarily going out and signing purity pledges, but holding off on sex until a couple of months into a relationship, then getting tested, and NEVER having one-night stands was fairly common.
It was a change from the previous decade, when there was a lot of sexual freedom, what with doctors finally not caring who they prescribed the pill for (at one time, it was hard to get it if you weren’t married, and ditto for diaphragms), abortion was legal, and universities had pretty much ended in loco parentis policies, along with dorm curfews, and soforth.
I’m willing to believe there is a lot more sex happening now than there was in my day, but we were scared. We were the first people to lose our virginity in the wake of AIDS. I also think that probably there’s a regression to the mean, and if we were a little extra prude, and people are slightly more indulgent now, it all evens out. I don’t think people change much, just circumstances, like the addition of HIV to the mix.
More sex in general means more regrettable sex (also more good sex-- more of everything: more vanilla, more BDSM, more oral, etc.) But I agree that the last thing a woman is going to do is broadcast her mistake, even by disguising it as a rape accusation.
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> Anyway, I’m unclear about the role an university in the USA has wrt to a crime commited on campus. I’m not exactly sure why they should have any policy at all wrt to rape, or any other crime for that matter. In what way it is their job to be even involved at all in the issue? Could American dopers clarify this?
Most campuses have their own police forces, and if you call 911 on a campus, the campus police arrive. Also, if you go to the nearest police station to your dorm or sorority house, it will be the campus police. Yes, they are real police, albeit, they turn people over to the county court system, but so do the city police, the sheriff and the state police.
The problem you get into is when the campus police try to keep something in-house, and it appears to get brushed under the rug, but honestly, when that happens, it usually isn’t a winnable case for the DA. I lived in a college town (small town, HUGE university) for many years, and when a woman was attacked and beaten in addition to being raped, and there needed to be an investigation, and clearly someone was going to go away to prison for a very long time, even when it happened on campus, it got turned over to the city police right away, because the campus police don’t have detectives or a CSU. That made some people think a case that didn’t get turned over was not being taken seriously.
One other time though, when a woman who was underage (that is, under 21, but over the age for sexual consent) got drunk at a frat party and raped, and reported it, the fraternity chapter was suspended from campus, and after four years could reapply, with no promise of re-acceptance, and everyone in the house was put on probation, because no one would come forward with the name of the rapist, and the woman didn’t know. Additionally, anyone in the honors program was removed from it. Departments were also allowed to take their own measures, but I don’t know whether any did. This case was never adjudicated, and probably would have been a loser for the DA, and as I said, I don’t think they ever came up with a name for the actual rapist, so he technically “got away with it,” but he was on probation with the rest of his former fraternity (and had to find a new place to live), and even if one of his frat brothers had narced on him, it still would have been a “he said/she said.”
Now, the frat wasn’t even supposed to have alcohol in the first place, but if it had just been a matter of underage drinking, the frat probably would have had something like a two-year probation, with nothing personal against any of the individual members.
So some campuses do take things seriously.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/73 "2014-09-30T17:01:26Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#):
>
> I’m fairly certain that’s has always been illegal and has nothing to do with this law. I think this law deals with the previously mentioned “low resistance” angle which has a lot grey area.
Well then let’s celebrate, because the grey area has been cleared up. Sex with an affirmative partner is ok, sex with a partner who has not affirmed may get you in legal trouble. Clear as day.
What this is really about is university policies are consistent.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/74 "2014-09-30T17:09:31Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#):
>
> A blow-up doll filled with beer?
::begins frantically emailing venture capitalists::
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/75 "2014-09-30T17:11:04Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> I’d be very interested to hear more about that case.
>
> This was a rape trial? I don’t know very much about English (English, right?) criminal procedure, but it couldn’t have been a criminal case if the alleged victim was making arguments in court, right?
English, yes, criminal, yes (the Old Bailey’s an extremely high-profile criminal court), and my memories of exactly what went down are dimmed by the years, but I believe I have summed up reasonably. Found [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/date-rape-acquittal-stokes-row-a-person-who-is-drunk-and-because-she-is-drunk-consents-to-an-act-which-she-would-not-when-sober-still-consents-1511857.html).
She and he were friends, as in “I will never fuck you but I’ll fuck anyone else in sight and tell you all the details later”. Seems she led him to believe his luck had changed.
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### Author:  [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/76 "2014-09-30T17:22:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Because she realized she made a mistake and regrets it. Alcohol can do that.
I’m sorry, but bullshit.
Like it was said earlier in the thread, alcohol doesn’t excuse you from driving while under it’s influence. Sure it ‘takes two to tango’, but you didn’t know she was married before hand. I would have no sympathy for this woman, and feel sorry for her husband.
…but let’s BLAME alcohol for the sake of argument. She should have known better not to get that fucked up if it leads to cheating.
I’m not sure of much when I post things on these boards, (I often sit on the fence until I hear all sides of the story), but in this case I’m 100% sure that this woman is responsible for her own actions and doesn’t deserve pity.
As for the broader topic, “ **Yes means yes** ”, I’m not convinced that it’s a good idea… but I’m unsure. Just like I often am.
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### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/77 "2014-09-30T17:30:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> English, yes, criminal, yes (the Old Bailey’s an extremely high-profile criminal court), and my memories of exactly what went down are dimmed by the years, but I believe I have summed up reasonably. Found [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/date-rape-acquittal-stokes-row-a-person-who-is-drunk-and-because-she-is-drunk-consents-to-an-act-which-she-would-not-when-sober-still-consents-1511857.html).
>
> She and he were friends, as in “I will never fuck you but I’ll fuck anyone else in sight and tell you all the details later”. Seems she led him to believe his luck had changed.
ISTM that this was just his story, and the prosecution was claiming she never consented at all.
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### Author:  [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/78 "2014-09-30T18:02:18Z")
Hasn’t there been cases where a JUDGE said basically "you didn’t say no enough or fight back hard enough’. Now the judge as to ask, “Did she say yes?” If not then it is criminal.
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/79 "2014-09-30T18:25:12Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Which woman that “declared” that it was rape are we comparing this to?
Which one do you want? Before I continue, I want to point out the I used the word “declare” because I thought it was neutral. I didn’t say she decided it was rape, and I didn’t say she claimed it was rape. I think we can remain agnostic on whether any particular case was rape or not and still address this.
_Give me a cite for any case where the woman afterward said it was consensual and the man said it wasn’t._
Do you really want cites for cases where the woman later said sex was not consensual, but the man said it was, and the man was tried on rape charges? I can do that, but so can google.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/80 "2014-09-30T18:42:49Z")
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> No, this does not change the burden of proof. It just changes what is being proved beyond a reasonable doubt (from “the accuser said no” to “the accuser did not say yes.”
>
> Yes, like all rape cases it is hard to prove. Doesn’t mean you don’t try to catch them.
The fact that it’s administrative instead of criminal makes a lot of my concerns moot. I do feel that the affirmative consent burden falls to the accused since it is defined as their responsibility to get consent, rather than it being the accuser’s responsibility to say no.
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