# Yes means Yes, dumb idea. Women should quit lying about 'rape."
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 30, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922 "2014-09-30T01:00:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/141 "2014-10-01T17:55:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Of course, if you followed my adage that men who do not want to risk being accused of rape **should simply avoid being alone with women,** none of that would have happened.
So all walks in the woods, dinners or movie nights at one’s house, camping treks in the woods, etc. should have a third-party companion?
Permanent end to all dates involving just 2 people?
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/142 "2014-10-01T17:58:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> So all walks in the woods, dinners or movie nights at one’s house, camping treks in the woods, etc. should have a third-party companion?
> Permanent end to all dates involving just 2 people?
Well, if a man wants to be absolutely certain he will never, ever, ever possibly be accused of rape, that’s just the inconvenience to his lifestyle he will have to adhere to.
---
### Author:  [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/143 "2014-10-01T18:04:33Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> For some people one drink is enough to incapacite them. If they can’t legally drive a car, I would say their judgement is impaired enough that consent is irrelevent and you should avoid having sex with such a person. Of course, if you followed my adage that men who do not want to risk being accused of rape should simply avoid being alone with women, none of that would have happened. Or if she had tried something, you would have at least had witnesses to testify that you did nothing. There is also the issue of respecting friendship or at least acquaintanceship. This woman knew you. She shouldn’t have had to maintain all the vigilant guards against assault one would have with a total stranger. The fact is she probably trusted you. You’re admission the next day that you almost took advantage of her showed her that she couldn’t. Whatever good relations existed in the past, whatever companionship the two of you had shared was obviously not worth as much to you as the opportunity to get laid. That’s a really nasty feeling when a woman realizes how little her male “friends” care about her, her emotions, her reputation, or her future. I am surprised she didn’t deck you.
Her: I want you to fuck me.
Him: No. You’re drunk, and I know if you were sober you would be uncomfortable having sex.
Her the next day: I would have accused you of rape had you had sex with me (despite me clearly asking you to fuck me)
ZPG Zealot: Another typical example of a male taking advantage of a female.
Rational observer: Zealot’s opinion is trash. Disregard going forward.
---
### Author:  [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/144 "2014-10-01T18:06:43Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#):
>
> In fairness to you, **flight** , ZPG Zealot’s definition of sexual assault is so broad that it literally encompasses handshakes. Also, whenever she takes a cab with a male driver she keeps her hand on a loaded gun in her handbag in case he tries to make a move on her. She may not be the best person to listen to on this subject.
Oh my god, is **ZPG Zealot** the handshake rape person? OK, feel better.
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> So how do you define not being able to understand the fact, extent or nature of sexual activity?
I would say someone who was not aware enough to be able to say, “I want sex.” [fact] “Oral isn’t doing it for me, need penis.” [extent] “Wrong hole.” [nature]
To play it safe, though, I personally would draw the line a lot sooner. Not as conservative as not being able to drive, but not too much more intoxicated.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/145 "2014-10-01T18:07:39Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Well, if a man wants to be absolutely certain he will never, ever, ever possibly be accused of rape, that’s just the inconvenience to his lifestyle he will have to adhere to.
I needed the laugh. Thanks. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/146 "2014-10-01T18:08:52Z")
> [@Stringbean](#):
>
> Her: I want you to fuck me.
>
> Him: No. You’re drunk, and I know if you were sober you would be uncomfortable having sex.
>
> Her the next day: I would have accused you of rape had you had sex with me (despite me clearly asking you to fuck me)
>
> ZPG Zealot: Another typical example of a male taking advantage of a female.
>
> Rational observer: Zealot’s opinion is trash. Disregard going forward.
Him: Here’s the passcode. Buy all the shoes you want.
Her: You’re drunk and I know if you were were sober you would not want me to clean you out.
Him the next day: I would have accused you of thief if you had taken all my money (even though I clearly invited to you to take it).
Rational observeration: Friends don’t take advantage of friends when they are drunk.
---
### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/147 "2014-10-01T18:10:56Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#):
>
> ZPG Zealot’s definition of sexual assault is so broad that \*\*it literally encompasses handshakes. \*\*
Was this in another thread?
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### Author:  [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/148 "2014-10-01T18:12:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Was this in another thread?
Yes, I need to look that up again. It was absolutely nutty. Basically it came down to men who offer their hand to a woman to shake were the same as rapists.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/149 "2014-10-01T18:14:19Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Him: Here’s the passcode. Buy all the shoes you want.
>
> Her: You’re drunk and I know if you were were sober you would not want me to clean you out.
>
> Him the next day: I would have accused you of theft if you had taken all my money (even though I clearly invited to you to take it).
> \*\*
> Rational observation: Friends don’t take advantage of friends when they are drunk.\*\*
You’re proving **flight** ’s point. He \*avoided \*taking advantage of the drunk woman for precisely this reason. I don’t think you understand the story.
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### Author:  [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/150 "2014-10-01T18:21:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Was this in another thread?
[Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593049) you go. It is not the handshake rape thread itself, but a compilation of nuttiness.
A good quote:
> [@ZPG Zealot](#):
>
> In my life I’ve learned many useful clues to human character. The handshake example is one of them. I hope at least some of the men who I’ve encountered who stick their hands out unwelcomed at women are not rapists. However, I have observed this ALL the men I have encountered who were rapist/sexual predators always tried to force women to shake their hands. It’s like that is the first step when they are sizing up potential victims.
---
### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/151 "2014-10-01T18:47:21Z")
To be fair, I don’t think ZPG Zealot ever said initiating handshakes were a form of rape or sexual assault. I think her claim is that there’s a correlation between initiating unwanted handshakes and sexual assaults. One can reply that correlation is not causation or question the accuracy of the observation, though.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/152 "2014-10-01T18:50:29Z")
This quote, though, makes me wonder if ZPG lives under this paranoid notion that the overwhelming majority of men are rapists.
“\*\*\*I hope at least some \*\*\*of the men who I’ve encountered who stick their hands out unwelcomed at women are not rapists.”
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/153 "2014-10-01T19:46:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> This quote, though, makes me wonder if ZPG lives under this paranoid notion that the overwhelming majority of men are rapists.
**ZPG Zealot** has a lot of odd notions. A shit ton, even.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/154 "2014-10-01T19:49:08Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#):
>
> But demonizing men is not going to help anything. This is not just “men bad, women good”\*
This doesn’t make sense as a response to my most recent post. I’m certainly not “demonizing men” or claiming “men bad, women good”. The fact that I’m horrified by the resurgence of the “women who have sex are sluts” notion doesn’t mean that I’m blaming men in particular for its resurgence.
> [@Slithy Tove](#):
>
> Women maintain the myth of sluttiness, because your boyfriend is your status symbol (not someone you, you know… “love,”), and other women who threaten that status do so by offering sex. Men step in to exploit slut-shaming culture (and use it to justify their actions).
>
> Men impose an equally harsh hierarchy of winners and losers on each other, and in adolescence, when their earning ability is not available for achieving status, pussy is the coin of the realm.
This is simply ridiculous reductionist half-assed social Darwinism. I’m not denying that there may indeed be many people who think this way about their relationships, but people who think this way about their relationships are assholes. We should not be letting the attitudes of assholes determine our social norms.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/155 "2014-10-01T20:03:26Z")
> [@flight](#):
>
> [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=593049) you go. It is not the handshake rape thread itself, but a compilation of nuttiness.
>
> A good quote:
Apparently, the idea that women have a right not to be attacked and sexually violated against their will is nuttiness to you? I fear for your any female relatives.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/156 "2014-10-01T20:05:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> You’re proving **flight** ’s point. He \*avoided \*taking advantage of the drunk woman for precisely this reason. I don’t think you understand the story.
I was replying to Stringbean’s little scenario.
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/157 "2014-10-01T20:22:44Z")
> [@flight](#):
>
> Yes, I need to look that up again. It was absolutely nutty. Basically it came down to men who offer their hand to a woman to shake were the same as rapists.
Urban Dictionary:[Handshake Rape](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=handshake%20rape).
There are probably older women who get at least annoyed, but I don’t think threatened, by changing customs around handshaking, although there may be a few women who do actually feel threatened. I have no idea how old ZPG Zealot is though.
It used to be that among social equals, women always extended the hand first, and then men would shake hands with them using a light grasp, because women tended to wear rings that made a firm grasp no fun whatsoever. However, with women in the business world, and following the custom their of waiting for the ranking person to extend the hand first, regardless of gender (exception: if you greet a higher-ranking person in your own office, offer your hand first), and so business etiquette has sort of spilled over into the social world, and women have started offering firm handshakes, even if it means wearing rings on the left hand only. Pretty much, rules for wearing rings have gone with a lot of other rules people used to follow-- like wearing a plunging neckline only in the evening.
Anyway, there is a certain type of alpha-dick, who has to impress everyone with his vise-like handshake, and of course, he offers up his hand to shake pretty quick, at every opportunity, even to older women who are old enough to be insulted (because they remember when there was a rule dictating something different). It’s definitely a shmuck move, but whether it correlates with rape, I have no idea.
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### Author:  [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/158 "2014-10-01T20:29:46Z")
Note that definition is different from the one ZPG is talking about, or even the vice handshake. Interesting to see someone else has used the term though.
In ZPG’s world, though, it is not just a breach of older etiquette, but by doing so you are directly saying that you think she is a whore. If she were to take your hand, then she would be confirming that yes, she is indeed a whore. Sort of like a prostitution secret handshake… except for any handshake.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/159 "2014-10-01T20:59:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Apparently, the idea that women have a right not to be attacked and sexually violated against their will is nuttiness to you? I fear for your any female relatives.
No, but the idea that people shouldn’t offer a handshake to any woman because she might be offended is pretty nutty. Most women in my community would be offended if I didn’t offer to shake hands. I’d take no offense if someone refused, of course, nor would I care at all.
But because I want to risk the least offense in my community, I offer to shake hands, while being ready to withdraw the offer if the woman prefers not to.
Your community might be different, of course.
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### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/160 "2014-10-01T21:15:19Z")
The idea that someone would choose to wilfully threaten and insult a woman they don’t know simply because of the customs of women they do know is much nuttier. It’s disgustingly hostile to women. The idea and beauty of formal etiquette is that allows people of diverse cultures and beliefs to interact with one another in a peaceful, nonconfrontal manner. They are tradiations we should fight to maintain, not trample on.
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