# Yes means Yes, dumb idea. Women should quit lying about 'rape."
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 30, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922 "2014-09-30T01:00:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/161 "2014-10-01T21:34:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> It’s disgustingly hostile to women.
Except it isn’t. It’s disgustingly hostile to you, but I’ve never heard of another person express that. As far as I can tell it’s a tiny, tiny minority of people that feel this way and frankly, the onus is on them to adapt in Western society.
---
### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/162 "2014-10-01T21:43:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> while being ready to withdraw the offer if the woman prefers not to.
And you shall know she prefers not to shake hands because **ZPG Zealot** will throw her hands up in the air and start screaching at the top of her lungs “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!” as she runs around in circles fumbling in her non-rape-hand bag for her loaded gun and then as she is still running in circles and still screaching “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!” she starts unloading her gun into the air. And then as everyone else dives for cover and your standing there frozen in fear and disbelief she runs up to you and points the gun in your face while still screaching “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!”.
And then you will understand that she simply did not want to shake your hand and you’ll say, “Well it was nice to meet you. I’ll see you at the next business meeting.” And you’ll turn and calmy walk away while she is still standing there trembling, still pointing the gun at you and still screaching “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!”
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/163 "2014-10-01T21:50:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> The idea that someone would choose to wilfully threaten and insult a woman they don’t know simply because of the customs of women they do know is much nuttier.
Right. I do not want to wilfully offend, insult, or threaten a woman in my community, so I offer a handshake – I’m much less likely to offend the women in my community by offering a handshake then by refraining from doing so.
Since we both agree that customs can differ, then you can understand that some women have totally opposite cultural expectations from yours. And because the women in my community have such different customs and expectations, then you would agree that it would be best for me to try and follow these customs and expectations.
So that’s why I offer a handshake – because I don’t want to offend the women in my community. If I go to a different community, I’ll have to find out what the women in that community expect.
Thank you for this reasonable discussion on cultural norms. Cultural norms can be shocking, sometimes, but every community has its own history and culture. And some cultural norms for women include the expectation that men offer a handshake. This is a real cultural norm for some humans on our planet. It’s not pretend – some women really expect a handshake. Community standards can be quite different in different places.
So I offer a handshake in my community, and I am ready to immediately withdraw it if appropriate. No woman has to shake my hand, the offer is there because most women in my community would be offended if I did not extend it.
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/164 "2014-10-01T21:56:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> The idea that someone would choose to wilfully threaten and insult a woman they don’t know simply because of the customs of women they do know is much nuttier. It’s disgustingly hostile to women. The idea and beauty of formal etiquette is that allows people of diverse cultures and beliefs to interact with one another in a peaceful, nonconfrontal manner. They are tradiations we should fight to maintain, not trample on.
Yes, and showing the sole of your show is a terrible insult in Arabian culture, and so is the thumbs up in much of the Middle East. Oh, and please don’t hand things to a Japanese person with only one hand (granted it’s only mildly rude). And the “ok” sign is offensive to Brazillians…
Look, intercultural politeness is complicated, but it’s almost literally impossible to be universally polite. Hell, I’ve seen some serious culture clash with people teaching southwest US American Indian communities. They want to avoid contact while a lot of us consider occasional eye contact respectful. When we ask questions of the class and don’t get an answer, we assume they’re timid or not speaking, but they often find it rude in their culture to not be given a minute or more to answer.
If I ever find myself about to put myself among a group of people who find handshakes horrifically offensive I’ll be sure not to offer one, but it’s also imperative to not take offense and politely decline when you’re in a culture where it’s respectful. Hell, women in my culture would often be offended if I didn’t offer a handshake (as iiandyiii notes). Just like an Arabian person has to just accept that he might see the soles of a hell of a lot of feet on the NYC subway, even if it’s on me to not cross my legs while travelling in the Middle East.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/165 "2014-10-01T22:09:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Right. I do not want to wilfully offend, insult, or threaten a woman in my community, so I offer a handshake – I’m much less likely to offend the women in my community by offering a handshake then by refraining from doing so.
>
> Since we both agree that customs can differ, then you can understand that some women have totally opposite cultural expectations from yours. And because the women in my community have such different customs and expectations, then you would agree that it would be best for me to try and follow these customs and expectations.
>
> So that’s why I offer a handshake – because I don’t want to offend the women in my community. If I go to a different community, I’ll have to find out what the women in that community expect.
>
> Thank you for this reasonable discussion on cultural norms. Cultural norms can be shocking, sometimes, but every community has its own history and culture. And some cultural norms for women include the expectation that men offer a handshake. This is a real cultural norm for some humans on our planet. It’s not pretend – some women really expect a handshake. Community standards can be quite different in different places.
>
> So I offer a handshake in my community, and I am ready to immediately withdraw it if appropriate. No woman has to shake my hand, the offer is there because most women in my community would be offended if I did not extend it.
That only works if you never, ever leave your community and only interact with those people for the rest of your life. The larger world has much larger ethnic scale where it’s important (or at least it should be important) to make a good faith effort not to offend people with major breeches of etiquette. I always tell my nephews when in doubt just ask about a practice before initiating it. No one (or at least no one sane) is offended by question of the nature of how do I treat you with respect?
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/166 "2014-10-01T22:11:07Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#):
>
> And you shall know she prefers not to shake hands because **ZPG Zealot** will throw her hands up in the air and start screaching at the top of her lungs “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!” as she runs around in circles fumbling in her non-rape-hand bag for her loaded gun and then as she is still running in circles and still screaching “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!” she starts unloading her gun into the air. And then as everyone else dives for cover and your standing there frozen in fear and disbelief she runs up to you and points the gun in your face while still screaching “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!”.
>
> And then you will understand that she simply did not want to shake your hand and you’ll say, “Well it was nice to meet you. I’ll see you at the next business meeting.” And you’ll turn and calmy walk away while she is still standing there trembling, still pointing the gun at you and still screaching “RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!”
Are you sure it’s not Methy Smurf?
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/167 "2014-10-01T22:33:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> That only works if you never, ever leave your community and only interact with those people for the rest of your life.
I said that when I leave my community, I reevaluate what’s appropriate. Did you read my post? I’m glad we agree, though.
> [@](#):
>
> The larger world has much larger ethnic scale where it’s important (or at least it should be important) to make a good faith effort not to offend people with major breeches of etiquette.
Agreed. So I act the appropriate way in my community, and when I go to another community, I try to research in advance what is appropriate. I’m glad we’re agreeing so much!
> [@](#):
>
> I always tell my nephews when in doubt just ask about a practice before initiating it. No one (or at least no one sane) is offended by question of the nature of how do I treat you with respect?
What a fine idea!
Wow, I’m glad we agree so much. And now we know – **ZPG Zealot** says it’s okay to offer a handshake to a woman if you’re in a community in which women might be offended if you do not extend such an offer. Way to go ZPG!
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/168 "2014-10-01T22:40:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I said that when I leave my community, I reevaluate what’s appropriate. Did you read my post? I’m glad we agree, though.
>
> Agreed. So I act the appropriate way in my community, and when I go to another community, I try to research in advance what is appropriate. I’m glad we’re agreeing so much!
>
> What a fine idea!
>
> Wow, I’m glad we agree so much. And now we know – **ZPG Zealot** says it’s okay to offer a handshake to a woman if you’re in a community in which women might be offended if you do not extend such an offer. Way to go ZPG!
Once again that only works if you never, ever leave that community where you know everybody and everybody has the exact same standards. I personally like meeting new people as long as they are polite and seeing the larger world. And I am really curious how you know every single woman that you have encountered in your community expects that you demand she touch your hand?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/169 "2014-10-01T22:51:03Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Once again that only works if you never, ever leave that community where you know everybody and everybody has the exact same standards.
But I agreed with you. When I leave my community, I research to see what the standards are in the new community. That’s what I said. More agreeing!
> [@](#):
>
> I personally like meeting new people as long as they are polite and seeing the larger world.
So do I! What a wonderful world filled with interesting people!
> [@](#):
>
> And I am really curious how you know every single woman that you have encountered in your community expects that you demand she touch your hand?
I know the overall cultural standards and expectations for my community, and overall, women will be offended if I don’t offer a handshake. There are exceptions, which is why I am ready to IMMEDIATELY AND WITHOUT DELAY!!! withdraw my hand if the woman does not want to shake my hand.
But because I want to lower the risk as small as possible of offending a woman, I am forced to offer a handshake in my community.
And again, before I go to another community, I do some research to find out what the cultural expectations and standards are. I have been to many different communities, including places in which offering a handshake to a woman was inappropriate. But in my community, it’s expected.
---
### Author:  [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/170 "2014-10-01T23:27:35Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Are you sure it’s not Methy Smurf?
Don’t you dare impose your communitys’ culture on me. :mad:
---
### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/171 "2014-10-02T01:41:55Z")
Going back to an earlier on-topic post…
(though it’s tough to type while sitting on my hands lest I inadvertently give offense by sticking a hand or finger in anyone’s direction on the off chance that someone may not be from around here…)
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#):
>
> Jack and Mary, both friends of mine but who didn’t really know each other, met at a gathering. Neither had been drinking. Jack is a very forward fellow, but not a bad guy, and, finding Mary attractive, put his hand on her knee as they talked. Mary didn’t react to this, so he moved his hand higher and higher. He noted that she seemed a bit nervous, but he was moving slowly and making eye contact and felt that he was giving her every chance to say “No”. Because he really isn’t a bad guy, he fully intended to stop when/if she said No or moved his hand away, but he hoped she wouldn’t. She never acted to stop him, but shortly her friend called her away and that ended the encounter.
>
> Unfortunately for both of them, what he didn’t know is that Mary is a survivor of longtime sexual abuse, and when he started moving his hand up her leg she started internally freaking out. She was trying really hard (and quite successfully) to keep it from showing, but what he saw as “nervous but not saying no” was actually “frozen in panic”. […]
>
> Naturally, when Jack found out about this, he felt absolutely horrible about it, apologizing like crazy. He kept saying that she should have said no, he would have stopped right away if she had said no. I really believe he would have. _However, as I told him afterwards, if he had sought a yes instead of waiting for a no, all this trouble would have been avoided._
First part of the answer is there – a true affirmative-consent-only rule that makes “seek a yes instead of waiting for a no” the standard, helps against tragic results from a failure of communication. Since a friend who knew what was up noticed and intervened, nothing happened, BUT…
## The other part of the answer would involve whether “frozen by panic” would be counted as an incapacitating condition _the possibility of which the other party should be expected to consider_ when attempting to establish consent. Especially in the example, this would also put Mary in a terrible situation in her own dating life, as depending on how intensely or easily triggered the frozen-in-panic state may impede her giving a proper “Yes” though willing, or even prevent her from making _her own_ half of the necessary consent queries if \*she \*were the one who wanted to initiate contact.
Affirmative consent does not have to be clinical or jarring, it can take the form of maintaining constant communication along the course of the encounter, with a lot of “May I?”, “do you like this?”, “is this OK?”, “does this feel good”, “tell me what you like(want)” and if the other party is or seems nonresponsive or the response seems strained, then… you just stop. Like that, you \*can \*just stop. If the culture changes enough in the direction of a true mutual affirmative-consent standard, then there should be no reproaching anyone for “giving up too quickly” or missing so-called “signals”. Yes, having to communicate GO/NO-GO clearly and unambiguously may take away face-saving moves in some cases, but better embarassed than assaulted.
---
### Author:  [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/172 "2014-10-02T06:30:42Z")
Once again **ZPG Zealot** turns the tide and steals the show.
That Roma culture, I’m really gonna have to look into that someday.
---
### Author:  [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/173 "2014-10-02T06:37:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Him: Here’s the passcode. Buy all the shoes you want.
>
> Her: You’re drunk and I know if you were were sober you would not want me to clean you out.
>
> Him the next day: I would have accused you of thief if you had taken all my money (even though I clearly invited to you to take it).
>
> Rational observeration: Friends don’t take advantage of friends when they are drunk.
You forgot the part where he decks her.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/174 "2014-10-02T12:46:26Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#):
>
> Don’t you dare impose your communitys’ culture on me. :mad:
You wish to claim that sexually violating women is your community standard? That’s sick.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/175 "2014-10-02T12:48:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> But I agreed with you. When I leave my community, I research to see what the standards are in the new community. That’s what I said. More agreeing!
>
> So do I! What a wonderful world filled with interesting people!
>
> I know the overall cultural standards and expectations for my community, and overall, women will be offended if I don’t offer a handshake. There are exceptions, which is why I am ready to IMMEDIATELY AND WITHOUT DELAY!!! withdraw my hand if the woman does not want to shake my hand.
>
> But because I want to lower the risk as small as possible of offending a woman, I am forced to offer a handshake in my community.
>
> And again, before I go to another community, I do some research to find out what the cultural expectations and standards are. I have been to many different communities, including places in which offering a handshake to a woman was inappropriate. But in my community, it’s expected.
I find it very hard to believe that you never encounter a woman that is not part of your community.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/176 "2014-10-02T12:52:38Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#):
>
> Once again **ZPG Zealot** turns the tide and steals the show.
>
> That Roma culture, I’m really gonna have to look into that someday.
This had nothing to do with Roma culture. It’s about men not intimidating women into physical contact. From shaking her hand to penetrating her vagina (or other sexual areas), if you are going to touch a woman, a man should obtain absolute consent first. Anything less and he’s a jerk to put it mildly and if he get’s slapped physically, or verbally with a rape accusation, he deserves it.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/177 "2014-10-02T12:53:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> I find it very hard to believe that you never encounter a woman that is not part of your community.
Of course – I never said I did. I was only talking about how I act with women in my community.
But I’ve done a lot of research, and I’m familiar with most of the communities I come into contact with frequently. So I’m reasonably well-equipped to handle interactions with people 99% of the time. In that last 1%, I am very cautious, and ask a lot of questions.
Most of the time, all this means I offer a handshake when meeting someone new, because to do otherwise would highly elevate the chance of offense. Occasionally I do not, when the circumstances and individuals warrant.
But I’m glad we’ve come to so much agreement, and I’m glad you can understand that in many situations, offering a handshake to a woman is not only appropriate, but the only appropriate action.
Thank you, **ZPG Zealot** , for understanding the myriad of human cultures and customs, and that many women have different and even opposite cultural expectations, and standards of offense, regarding handshakes, than you do.
---
### Author:  [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/178 "2014-10-02T13:05:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Of course – I never said I did. I was only talking about how I act with women in my community.
>
> But I’ve done a lot of research, and I’m familiar with most of the communities I come into contact with frequently. So I’m reasonably well-equipped to handle interactions with people 99% of the time. In that last 1%, I am very cautious, and ask a lot of questions.
>
> Most of the time, all this means I offer a handshake when meeting someone new, because to do otherwise would highly elevate the chance of offense. Occasionally I do not, when the circumstances and individuals warrant.
>
> But I’m glad we’ve come to so much agreement, and I’m glad you can understand that in many situations, offering a handshake to a woman is not only appropriate, but the only appropriate action.
>
> Thank you, **ZPG Zealot** , for understanding the myriad of human cultures and customs, and that many women have different and even opposite cultural expectations, and standards of offense, regarding handshakes, than you do.
All possible chances of offending anyone can be eliminated by the simple phrase, “Is is your custom to shake hands with men?” which you don’t indicate you do. Sticking out your hand and assuming every women approves of your behavior or that you can force them to accommodate you is just another form of bullying.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/179 "2014-10-02T13:05:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Of course – I never said I did.
This should read “I never said I hadn’t”.
I’ve interacted with women from many different communities, both at home and abroad, and have both offered and not offered handshakes, depending on the individuals and communities.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-means-yes-dumb-idea-women-should-quit-lying-about-rape/699922/180 "2014-10-02T13:08:37Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> All possible chances of offending anyone can be eliminated by the simple phrase, “Is is your custom to shake hands with men?” which you don’t indicate you do.
I do ask (and I said I did – I get the picture that you don’t really read my posts, which makes me sad) when I don’t know the answer already. Further, women from some communities would be offended that I asked. Cultural standards and customs can vary widely, including even (strange though it may seem to you!) offense taken by asking this question!
Truly human cultural variation is beautiful and amazing! And surprising, very often, I’m sure.
> [@](#):
>
> Sticking out your hand and assuming every women approves of your behavior or that you can force them to accommodate you is just another form of bullying.
Of course. And I would never do such an evil thing. I only offer a handshake when to do otherwise, including asking, would increase the risk of offering offense.
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