# Yes Mom, Jesus went through enormous pain. But it was 21 centuries ago. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378 "2004-03-15T04:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/21 "2004-03-15T10:56:46Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, within the context of your beliefs, while it was great sacrifice, I think most would endure crucifiction knowing there’s be an eternity in heaven afterwards. You’d be surprised how many people can’t even endure a power outage. Or, say, a person with different opinions. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/22 "2004-03-15T11:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Gobear, I’m not particularly religious, but I found your post to be quite offensive. You know, it is possible to be a Christian and not a “fundy” who believes all gays are sinners. WTF? You must be reading another thread because my posts had nothing to do with being gay. I was attacking the concept of the Atonement, the central doctrine of Christianity. My point would be the same were the most hetero of skirtchasers, so leave out the irrelevant “Well, you’re GAY” responses, shall we? > [@](#): > > Both claim that a particular religion calls for the deaths of people (plural) for minor infractions. Neither Islam nor Christianity is even close to how the broad brushes of these two idiots have painted them. Listening to gobear, you would think that Christians believe martyrs are required to save the world from Jenna Jameson If yopu are not prepared for rough, blunt discussions, you don’t belong in the Pit. This isn’t the vicar’s tea party. And if you don’t know enough about Christian doctrine to know that Christianity teaches that Christ died for the sins of all humanity (Acts 2:22-24, I Cor 15:3), then you don’t belong in this discussion. So, **Monkey with A Gun** , don’t bring a knife to a gun fight (but you’d better bring your Bible and at least a smattering of theology–citing “ineffability” isn’t a good start.) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/23 "2004-03-15T12:02:30Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Care to elaborate on that? How is grossly and purposedly misrepresenting an entire religion _not_ agressive and bigoted? I made no comment upon whether gobear’s question was accurate, I just said the comparison you drew was wrong. > [@](#): > > Please show me the fundamental difference between Anne Coulter’s statement and **gobear’s** question. No, you please show me that they are the same. You are yet to do so. > [@](#): > > Both claim that a particular religion calls for the deaths of people (plural) for minor infractions. Neither Islam nor Christianity is even close to how the broad brushes of these two idiots have painted them. Listening to **gobear** , you would think that Christians believe martyrs are required to save the world from Jenna Jameson. Coulter’s comment states very directly that Islam exhorts its members to genocide. Explain to me how what gobear says amounts to that. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/24 "2004-03-15T12:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Please show me the fundamental difference between Anne Coulter’s statement and gobear’s question. Both claim that a particular religion calls for the deaths of people (plural) for minor infractions Um, that’s not what I said–I never said anything about Christians being commanded to kill, but that God decreed that sinful humans–you, me, all the Dopers, everyone–deserves to die and be cast into Hell for our sins against His law. Jesus, the Lamb of God, was sacrificed to atone for our sins and to allow us to enter Heaven if we believe in Him. (John 3:16-17). How you equate that with Ann Coulter is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/25 "2004-03-15T13:13:23Z")
Well, this has gone way beyond what I wanted it be. I just always think of the points in the OP whenever my Mom starts moaning and weeping about Jesus’ sacrifice, and simply wanted to vent them. That’s all. I’m not looking for any kind of “solution” for the theological differences between me and my Mom. None is needed. Our relationship is very good. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/26 "2004-03-15T13:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > So Jesus got crucified? So what? It was a common Roman punishment for provincials. Lots of non-citizen criminals and subversives got nailed up on the cross, but you don’t find Christers boo-hooing over them. We don’t exactly know of any of their names, either. But the point is that while killing a man may be a horribel thing, we killed _God_. That ranks beyond the Holocaust on the evil scale. In fact, it ranks beyond any evil deed ever done, ever. Were it not for God’s love and willingness to forgive, that alone should have damned us all. > [@](#): > > Mind you,the film is brilliantly made, but come on! What kind of insane, evil deity demands blood atonement from an innocent guy–God’s own Son!–for the sins of the world? But he wasn’t demanding blood atonement from his son. He was offering himself up for punishment by people who had no right, because in shedding he would create a new covenant with mankind. I don’t claim to fully understand why He would choose that way, but He did. God offered nothing He had no right to give. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/27 "2004-03-15T13:24:04Z")
> [@Ferrous](#): > > Hmm…how about “theophobe”? Fairly well-known prefix and suffix, plus the similarity to “homophobe”, so everyone would know what you were going for. Then we could have the same sort of semantic wrangling as with “homophobe”, with atheists saying “I’m not _afraid_ of God, I just don’t believe in him!” > > I foresee hours of fun. I’m a Rudyphobe myself. And on nights when I’m alone, the thunder and lightning are bullying-up outside and the floorboards are creaking… I’m a hand-stabbing Cliffphobe, too. I’ve always been afraid of Theo and the rest of the Cosbys. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/28 "2004-03-15T13:55:30Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > We don’t exactly know of any of their names, either. But the point is that while killing a man may be a horribll thing, we killed _God_. That ranks beyond the Holocaust on the evil scale. In fact, it ranks beyond any evil deed ever done, ever. Were it not for God’s love and willingness to forgive, that alone should have damned us all. First, how can you kill God? An eternal, immortal being can’t also be a temporal, mortal being–it’s a logical contradiction. Moreover, Jesus knew that He would resurrect, so all He really gave up was a weekend. Heck, Army reservists do that regularly. And killing one man unjustly outweighs killing 6 million people unjustly? That makes no sense either mathematically or morally. And just what do you mean by “us” kemo sabe? You can blame Christ’s death on the Romans and the Pharisees, but don’t look at me, I wasn’t even born yet. Killing Jesus on the pretext of atoning for sins that hadn’t even been committed yet (that’s assuming the existence of sin in the first place) also makes no sense. > [@](#): > > But he wasn’t demanding blood atonement from his son. He was offering himself up for punishment by people who had no right, because in shedding he would create a new covenant with mankind. I don’t claim to fully understand why He would choose that way, but He did. God offered nothing He had no right to give. Again, killing innocent people to punish guilty people is no way to run a justice system–and exactly why do humans deserve to be killed by a Divine Bully, anyway? To quote Patti Smyth, “Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but not mine.” ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/29 "2004-03-15T14:12:27Z")
One point it seems many people are missing is that Jesus was not “just” crucified. He was crucified with all of the world’s sins on his head. Of course, there is no way to tell exactly how much that was (if, indeed, even worldy pain can be quantified) but you can feel the terror that he experience not only because of the agony but by the shock of God leaving him (as he was tainted with a world of sin). “Why have you forsaken me” indeed. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/30 "2004-03-15T14:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > One point it seems many people are missing is that Jesus was not “just” crucified. He was crucified with all of the world’s sins on his head. That begs the question of _why_ was the Atonement\* necessary. God sacrificed Himself to Himself to satisfy rules that He made? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/31 "2004-03-15T14:36:05Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > We don’t exactly know of any of their names, either. But the point is that while killing a man may be a horribel thing, we killed _God_. Speak for yourself, pal. I wasn’t there and I killed nobody. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/32 "2004-03-15T14:58:07Z")
Historical trivia: after the Sparticus revolt, the Romans took six _thousand_ of the rebellious slaves and crucified them along the Appian Way. Kinda puts the crucifixion of two thieves and one messiah into perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/33 "2004-03-15T14:59:00Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Because either Mom would start to realize that she’s being way worse than the god she professes to love, or at least her recalcitrance would be completely on the record. How exactly did you glean from the OP that she was “being way worse than the god she professes to love”? And even still, how does that justify such an abrasive response? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/34 "2004-03-15T15:02:40Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Just to clear up some unchallenged ignorance in the OP, but I believe it was more like 20 centuries ago. True, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/35 "2004-03-15T15:25:21Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > (John 3:16-17). How you equate that with Ann Coulter is beyond me. I believe she was mentioned in revelation 17:3-5. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/36 "2004-03-15T15:39:11Z")
Ret? I know you weren’t asking for advice, but I agree with telling your mom that you know dad’s in heaven because he was a good guy is a good idea. Maybe she’ll start to believe you and be happier. If you want. But don’t get into, ‘Big deal, it was only three hours.’ Bad idea. Very bad. ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/37 "2004-03-15T15:43:01Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I believe she was mentioned in revelation 17:3-5. That was approximately the funniest Bible reference I’ve seen in my life. Hee hee. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/38 "2004-03-15T16:06:24Z")
> [@carrot](#): > > That was approximately the funniest Bible reference I’ve seen in my life. Hee hee. Since I don’t have a Bible handy, I’m guessing the cited passage refers to The Whore of Babylon. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/39 "2004-03-15T16:15:52Z")
> [@vunderbob](#): > > Since I don’t have a Bible handy, I’m guessing the cited passage refers to The Whore of Babylon. You’re on the Internet, so you have a [Bible](http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html) handy. > [@](#): > > 3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. > 4: And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: > 5: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/40 "2004-03-15T16:20:23Z")
Wait a minute, how long were your parents married? I mean, the poor woman was just widowed. Maybe your dad was the center of her life for so long that she’s displacing her grief onto Jesus’ pain. I would cut her some slack. But if she does press you on it, I would say that we humans can never understand God’s mercy and we can assume that He gives every chance to every person who dies, whether or not they’re in a ‘state of grace’ of one particular religion or another. Why is she so concerned about your father’s soul? You mentioned that he ‘didn’t share her beliefs’, but does that mean he was a different Christian church from hers or was she more orthodox in the same church? Did he refuse last rites or did he never get a chance to pray before he died at all? If he died suddenly maybe she thinks he wasn’t right with God. JMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378.md?page=3)