# Yes Mom, Jesus went through enormous pain. But it was 21 centuries ago. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378 "2004-03-15T04:34:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/101 "2004-03-16T07:41:57Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Do you know the difference between the remedial and sacrificial? Do you understand the Socian influence? (Have you read _Cur Deus Homo?_) > > You do realize that Jesus is not “an innocent person”; He is the son of God, both man and God. (Yes, it is possible, if you believe in the Trinity.) He gave his life to save all mankind (if you believe in “unlimited atonement”). It was, as others have pointed out, a sacrifice, not a killing. God sacrificed part of Himself to save all. Perhaps, as some believe, He was sent to fulfill some divine justice. Perhaps He was here as a moral influence as well as a reconciliation; perhaps He was here to create a new covenant with God. Not to interrupt, but leander, could you briefly describe the difference between the remedial and the sacrificial in the context of this discussion for me? Keeping in mind that I have never heard of the Socian influence? iampuhna, I think leander just brought up the point I am trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/102 "2004-03-16T08:15:09Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Did you fail logic? No. Why? > [@](#): > > If I said earthquakes cause as much damage as hurricanes, would you accuse me of claiming that earthquakes cause high winds? If I said wishes were fishes, would they all fly away? Or to put it a bit more bluntly, what the fuck are you talking about? > [@](#): > > Because two arguments are equally agressive and bigoted does not meant that they are agressive and bigotted in the same way, or even for the same reasons. It just doesn’t follow. Yes, Coulter clearly states that the tenets of Islam include killing people who don’t smell. No, **gobear** is not saying that the tenets of Christianity include killing people who don’t smell. What **gobear** did say, however, is that the tenets of Christianity require somebody to die to atone for the sin of sleeping in on Sunday. Whether they are talking about genocide or martyrdom, both agressively and malicioulsy mischaracterize an entire religion out of bigotry. I hear you on all this. It is all irrelevant, but I hear you. I know that you think the two comments were aggressive and bigoted. The golden question, though, is _ **are** _ the two comments _ **equally** _ as aggressive and bigoted? And the answer to anyone other than a complete idiot, is no. One is a claim that a particular religion calls for genocide of unbelievers (I doubt one could devise a more slanderous lie about a religion) and the other is a comment that a religion involves people dying for the sins of others, in the most famous instance _at the hands of unbelievers_. One is a comment to the effect that a religion calls for its followers to be cold blooded mass murderers, the other says nothing at all to that effect. To put it in your terms, your commment was like saying that a breeze is as bad as a hurricane because they are both wind. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/103 "2004-03-16T08:19:13Z")
I understand the crux of the point you are trying to make, **j66**. I merely do not accept it with the credulity you assign it; however much or little you give it, I’m fairly sure I give it less. Some see the idea of God’s only son being sacrificed for the world as something upon which they can base all their beliefs, all their life, etc. Some see it with less gravity. And some think it is limiting, to be diplomatic, and are not impressed by that sort of deity. I quite frankly do not care to knowingly associate with any being who would make one of his faithful think that same faithful man had to sacrifice his son to please the being, but then given a choice between a metaphysical being of whose presence I remain unconvinced and any future offspring, I side with the one I’ll hopefully be holding in coming years. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/104 "2004-03-16T08:37:28Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > You don’t happen to know where to find this outside of the SDMB, do you? The only place I’ve ever seen it referenced is in **Libertarian** ’s posts. I’m starting to wonder if it’s an urban legend that this is an urban legend. Hmm. Interesting. I just tried Googling it, as I’m sure you did as well. Nothing on that story from the search strings [“madeleine murray o’hare” +“god bless you”] or [“madeleine murray o’hare” +hand +stabbed] or similar ones. Searching for the phrase “hand-stabbing atheist” only returns a post by **Libertarian** on another board. That does seem a bit suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/105 "2004-03-16T08:50:34Z")
> [@princhester](#): > > One is a claim that a particular religion calls for genocide of unbelievers (I doubt one could devise a more slanderous lie about a religion) and the other is a comment that a religion involves people dying for the sins of others, in the most famous instance at the hands of unbelievers. True, genocide is a slanderous lie, but so is claiming that the God of another religion is a murderer Himself. (That would be the “killing people is the only way to atone for sins” bit) Look, we can argue about my use of “as” in the comparison all night and into tomorrow, but the whole point of my argument is that **gobear** is an overzealous, unempathetic, bigoted, self-righteous asshole for sugesting that **revtim** attack his widowed mother’s religion using aggresive, over-simplistic, offensive, impolitic mischaracterization tactics just because she occasionally annoys him. That’s why I entered this thread. **Gobear’s** initial post was just _wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/106 "2004-03-16T08:58:13Z")
> [@WaryEri](#): > > > [@gobear](#): > > > > Hey, dumbshit, medieval history major here. For my senior thesis, I translated from Latin three sermons by Alan of Lille commenting on the lamentable tide of secular education, which I combined with a 100-page paper on the transformation of education in 12th-century France. Go patronize somebody else, buster. I’ve read the bleedin’ Sic et Non, so if you want to get into Abelard’s use of dialectic in a rapprochement between Nominalism and Realism as a forerunner to the later Thomist Scholasticism that attempted to integrate Aristotelian philosphy with Christian doctrine, bring it on, beyotch! > > Don’t have much of a dog in this fight (hugs to militant vegitarian agnostic mum), but this little snippet of post has secured my undying admiration of gobear forever. > > I want to frame it and hang it somewhere prominant, with the beyotch part gold embossed. Pretty, isn’t it? Unfortunately, it doesn’t really have shit to do with our discussion of Atonement. But it sounds impressive enough to fool some folks. (If you want to learn about Abelard’s theory of Atonement, try reading _Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans_. Gobear is essentially talking about a scholastic methodology developed by Abelard, used by him and others to study the bible (and other works).) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/107 "2004-03-16T09:23:03Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > **Gobear’s** initial post was just _wrong_. I make no comment on gobear’s initial post. You say that it was wrong and over aggressive etc. Your post under discussion was at most wrong, and at the least aggressively exaggerated and lacking any sense of proportion. In short, you are a hypocrite: you are so wrapped up in your own religion that you can compare gobear’s little theological goads to accusing another religion of inciting mass murder, and consider them equal. You appear utterly unable to see that this is as much or considerably more of an exaggeration than anything committed by gobear. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/108 "2004-03-16T09:26:08Z")
> [@j66](#): > > Not to interrupt, but leander, could you briefly describe the difference between the remedial and the sacrificial in the context of this discussion for me? Keeping in mind that I have never heard of the Socian influence? > > iampuhna, I think leander just brought up the point I am trying to make. Sure. Gobear’s genius notwithstanding, the Atonement has puzzled scholars for centuries. Several theories have arisen, but none has been “set in stone”, so to speak; that is, the Church has not sanctioned any one theory. Sacrificial (also Anselmian) basically supposes that Christ’s sacrifice is for the sins of man; though, again, this is more complicated than it appears. Some say the sacrifice was made for divine justice, ie, we’re all sinners so someone has to pay the price; others say the sacrifice was made to show us sinners the importance of Christ and his teachings (“If he would do all that for us, his stuff must be really important…”). The remedial is that God lived through Christ to eliminate sin for us and make a new covenant. And the Socian (or moral) theory is that God was here to influence us morally. That’s a simplistic breakdown (hey, it’s late), but it should give you a basic idea. And it should tell you that this issue is extremely complicated, and in spite of idiots like gobear, not so easily tossed aside. (“But hey, God just sent some guy to be killed, right…? That ain’t cool.”) ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/109 "2004-03-16T10:53:23Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > In short, you are a hypocrite: you are so wrapped up in your own religion that you can compare gobear’s little theological goads to accusing another religion of inciting mass murder, and consider them equal. I’m an agnostic, ya idiot. I don’t even _have_ a religion, and this was never about mass murder. Damn, you’re stupid. Anyhow, I’m done. Your “I know you are are, but what am I?” brand of debate has grown tiresome, and I’m fairly confident **gobear** knows this impartial observer thinks he acted like an asshole. You just don’t say shit like that to your mom. Hell, you shouldn’t say shit like that to anybody. I’m glad **revtim** has refused his advice, and I have nothing more to say on the matter. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/110 "2004-03-16T10:55:32Z")
OK, then, in short, you are a hypocrite: you compare gobear’s little theological goads to accusing another religion of inciting mass murder, and consider them equal. You appear utterly unable to see that this is as much or considerably more of an exaggeration than anything committed by gobear. That better? Oh, you’re leaving. I can understand why. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/111 "2004-03-16T11:07:25Z")
THIS WAS NEVER ABOUT MASS MURDER ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/112 "2004-03-16T11:11:21Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I’m fairly confident **gobear** knows this impartial observer thinks he acted like an asshole. I’m fairly sure he is damaged beyond repair from that statement, and the fact that its owner said he was done here, then came back 14 minutes later with more to “add”, does nothing to detract from your point. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/113 "2004-03-16T11:14:35Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > I’m fairly sure he is damaged beyond repair from that statement, and the fact that its owner said he was done here, then came back 14 minutes later with more to “add”, does nothing to detract from your point. Point taken. That was childish and below me. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/114 "2004-03-16T12:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > What gobear did say, however, is that the tenets of Christianity require somebody to die to atone for the sin of sleeping in on Sunday. Missing church is a sin. Jesus died for all our sins. Jesus died, in part, for people who miss church. Hey, blame your stupid religion for making the rules, not me for pointing out their absurdity. And **Monkey with a Gun** thinks I’m an asshole? Oh, me, I shall do my best to endure your scorn. > [@](#): > > I’m glad revtim has refused his advice, and I have nothing more to say on the matter. **RevTim** knows that was never meant to be literal advice to his mother. He knows that, everyone else knows that, except for pointy-headed drool monkeys who can’t figure out what rhetorical expressions are for. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, it doesn’t really have shit to do with our discussion of Atonement. But it sounds impressive enough to fool some folks Hey, dumbshit, no, it has zero to do with the atonement. Do you even read posts. I was replying to your attempt to dazzle me with medieval namedropping, and I pointed out that I could do it better. In any event, you are now espousing heresy–Socianism was formally condemned by the Holy Office (the Inquistion to everyone else.). An influence on the Unitarians, but not a part of any major Christian denominations theology. And remedial and sacrifical are not truly separate doctines. In any event, that’s just a laundry list, not an argument–you know, premises plus a conclusion. Remind me again why I’m the dimwit and you are the genius? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/115 "2004-03-16T12:42:12Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > THIS WAS NEVER ABOUT MASS MURDER Certainly it never was from gobear’s point of view, I’m pretty sure. If you didn’t think that’s what it was about, why did you compare gobear’s comments to a statement that Islam was an incitement to mass murder? Or were you engaged in aggressive hyperbole of the type you decry in gobear? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/116 "2004-03-16T12:56:53Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Sure. Gobear’s genius notwithstanding, the Atonement has puzzled scholars for centuries. Several theories have arisen, but none has been “set in stone”, so to speak; that is, the Church has not sanctioned any one theory. > > Sacrificial (also Anselmian) basically supposes that Christ’s sacrifice is for the sins of man; though, again, this is more complicated than it appears. Some say the sacrifice was made for divine justice, ie, we’re all sinners so someone has to pay the price; others say the sacrifice was made to show us sinners the importance of Christ and his teachings (“If he would do all that for us, his stuff must be really important…”). > > The remedial is that God lived through Christ to eliminate sin for us and make a new covenant. > > And the Socian (or moral) theory is that God was here to influence us morally. > > That’s a simplistic breakdown (hey, it’s late), but it should give you a basic idea. And it should tell you that this issue is extremely complicated, and in spite of idiots like gobear, not so easily tossed aside. > > (“But hey, God just sent some guy to be killed, right…? That ain’t cool.”) On the first page of this thread I said “it’s not a matter of having no clue regarding theological concepts, it’s a matter of choosing to cut to the chase and ignore large amounts of obfuscatory blather”. The above is _exactly_ what I’m talking about. “The Atonement has puzzled scholars for centuries” you say. Why might that be? Well, it _could_ be because it’s a very difficult subject that _can_ be made sense of, we just need another few millennia, we’ll get it all sorted out right after we figure out how many angels would fit on the head of a pin, and exactly how long a piece of string is. Or it could be that it basically makes no sense because its a load of self contradictory bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/117 "2004-03-16T13:06:49Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > By Pitting her. > > I rest my case. 😉 Define “pitting” however you want, but I was not pitting her with bad feelings toward hers, as you implied with your “Um, you do realize that the OP is Pitting his Mom, right?” statement. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/118 "2004-03-16T13:51:11Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > I understand the crux of the point you are trying to make, j66 Oh, good; I really thought I just wasn’t getting my point across. Sorry to have been so dense; I was getting really tired last night. > [@iampunha](#): > > I merely do not accept it with the credulity you assign it; however much or little you give it, I’m fairly sure I give it less Don’t be. I just see some beauty in the symbolism. > [@iampunha](#): > > I quite frankly do not care to knowingly associate with any being who would make one of his faithful think that same faithful man had to sacrifice his son to please the being I have had trouble with that one, too. I would be willing to discuss its meaning, but (I assume) than neither of use is a practicing Christian, so, why bother? ty & tc ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/119 "2004-03-16T13:51:58Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Human logic can’t describe the mind of God. That’s ineffability in a nutshell. If God is by definition incapable of being described or understood, what was the fucking point in asking about his “ideas”? I’m only a short ways into this thread, but this one jumped out at me. If god can’t be described or understood, who – or what are you worshipping, and why would you worship something whose ideas are incomprehensible? You aren’t helping your case, Monkey. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378/120 "2004-03-16T14:19:26Z")
> [@leander](#): > > … the Atonement has puzzled scholars for centuries … > … Church has not sanctioned any one theory … Really? Do I understand it all? Christ, a manifestation of God, accepted all the limitations of humanity, to expiate the sins of humanity. The limitations of humanity were necessary to make the act purely selfless. Of course, in order for this to make any sense, one has to move past a linear definition of time, but one has to do that to accept free-will. Am I anywhere near the accepted tennets of the faith? But now I am really confused about another detail of your debate: > [@leander](#): > > And the Socian (or moral) theory is that God was here to influence us morally. > [@gobear](#): > > Socianism was formally condemned by the Holy Office (the Inquistion to everyone else.) Aah, say what? That just makes no sense to me at all. I think I have to go research this superficially. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-mom-jesus-went-through-enormous-pain-but-it-was-21-centuries-ago/234378.md?page=7)