# Yes, rjung, we get it. You like Macs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 9, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348 "2004-02-09T23:36:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/21 "2004-02-10T04:09:30Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > I’m afraid I don’t see the logic here. Does that mean that if someone creates a thread in CS on “What’s your favorite 18th-Century composer?” For _a lot_ of people, “song” means any music. I constantly hear people call a instrumental piece a “song,” even though it has no singing. So, when people ask, “What’s your favorite _song_?” pardon me if I don’t strain to think of some favorite piece that has actual singing in it. Asking for a favorite 18th-Century compose is far more specific than _song._ If someone was asking about favorite grunge bands, I wouldn’t pop in with something about Classical. Or if they asked for a favorite popular song from the 1970s, I wouldn’t add anything that wasn’t from the '70s. (But I wouldn’t guarantee that I’d mention something that has actual _singing_ in it! ;)) But to some people, there _is_ nothing that is not a “song.” There _is_ nothing that is not made by a “group,” or a “band.” That’s all there _is_ in their world. Just like to some people, Windows-based PCs _are_ the only computers that exist in their world. Computer=PC. They may not come right out and say that, of course, because they are completely oblivious. All I do (and rjung does, I suspect) is remind people that “computer” does not always equal “Windows-based PC.” “Group” or “band” doesn’t have to mean a group of musicians that performs music written in the last 40 years. “Song,” obviously to most people, means, “any musical piece.” Jeff Olson, yes, you are right. My mistake. #5: gratuitous. But I disagree with you on the “vice versa” thing. I think that it was okay, or at worst, borderline. And I think that he did make a mostly true statement. You don’t ask a Mac-only person about cross-platform issues. Nor do you ask a PC-only person about cross-platform issues. Because neither of them are cross-platform. I don’t know if bias would always be the _only_ reason to not ask them (ignorance would also be a likely reason), but he does make a valid point overall. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/22 "2004-02-10T05:10:47Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > Jeff Olson, yes, you are right. My mistake. #5: gratuitous. But I disagree with you on the “vice versa” thing. I think that it was okay, or at worst, borderline. It is possible that I misread his intention there. > [@](#): > > - And I think that he did make a mostly true statement. You don’t ask a Mac-only person about cross-platform issues. Nor do you ask a PC-only person about cross-platform issues. Because neither of them are cross-platform. I don’t know if bias would always be the _only_ reason to not ask them (ignorance would also be a likely reason), but he does make a valid point overall.\* That’s the thing. It’s not the points he makes, it’s the how and where he makes them. My examples are from six recent threads, I wonder how many others were graced with his shtick. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/23 "2004-02-10T05:58:24Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I think porting OSX would be a neat parlor trick. Apple makes an OS that runs on their hardware, not one that could run on literally thousands of different configurations with crappy third party hardware. I believe this is why you won’t see a port anytime soon, and if you did, it would be no better then XP. I’m sure porting OSX to x86 is quite doable, but no small amount of work. Describing it as a “neat parlor trick” implies (in my mind) that there’s something inherently difficult about it, whereas I think it’s simply as you say – running on the x86 PC architecture means supporting a **lot** of different hardware, and that means a **lot** of development and testing resources. NeXT did it long ago with NextStep (which OSX is based on), but their list of supported x86 hardware was miniscule. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/24 "2004-02-10T13:30:49Z")
And most of the companies on the market would not port their drivers, as it would take a lot of money, would not get any them any noticable sales, and Microsoft would stomp on Jobs like a bug. But honestly, Macs are not really very good anymore. They’ve been left behind, though the mac-faithful are convinced their savior Job will have a second coming one of these days and they will conquer the heathen devils. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/25 "2004-02-10T14:28:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > asking a Windows user about the virtues of a Mac (or vice-versa) is oftentimes as unproductive as asking Ann Coulter for suggestions on Democratic nominees. > [@yosemitebabe](#): > > I disagree with you on the “vice versa” thing. I think that it was okay, or at worst, borderline. He could have written it as “asking a Mac user about the virtue of Windows” and there would not have been any implied PC slam. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/26 "2004-02-10T17:26:31Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > He could have written it as “asking a Mac user about the virtue of Windows” and there would not have been any implied PC slam. Six of one, half a dozen of another. “Vice versa” means that it works both ways. He picked one way, (“asking a PC user”) and then said “vice versa.” Sorry, I think you’re reaching a little with this one. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/27 "2004-02-10T17:42:12Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > Sorry, I think you’re reaching a little with this one. Could be. I’d prefer to hear it from **rjung** though. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/28 "2004-02-10T17:59:56Z")
Me, I prefer the Whopper. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/29 "2004-02-10T18:30:11Z")
> [@galt](#): > > I’m sure porting OSX to x86 is quite doable, but no small amount of work. Describing it as a “neat parlor trick” implies (in my mind) that there’s something inherently difficult about it, whereas I think it’s simply as you say – running on the x86 PC architecture means supporting a **lot** of different hardware, and that means a **lot** of development and testing resources. NeXT did it long ago with NextStep (which OSX is based on), but their list of supported x86 hardware was miniscule. But at the end of the day, OSX would suffer in the same way that XP does. You can’t test for every possible combination of hardware and software. I seriously doubt it would be any better then XP. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/30 "2004-02-10T21:20:49Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > Could be. I’d prefer to hear it from **rjung** though. Geez, are we still going on with this thing? I’d thought it would have died from boredom already. I mean, _I’m_ the subject and I find it incredibly dull. But if it makes you feel any better, **Jeff,** it wasn’t meant as a slam. I am too busy to be subtle these days; when I want to take a potshot at the unreliable half-assed butt-ugly embarassingly bad POS that is a typical Windows PC, I make sure everyone knows I’m taking a potshot at the unreliable half-assed butt-ugly embarassingly bad POS that is a typical Windows PC. See previous sentence for an example of this technique. 😉 > [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > I happen to like your posts, except for the I©Macs shtick. There’s an old belief among Persian rug weavers that they are not allowed to make a flawless rug – all of their works must be flawed in some way, as only God can be perfect, and they would never dare to presume themselves to be God. If it makes you feel any better, just think of my “schtick” as an obligatory flaw. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/31 "2004-02-10T21:36:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Geez, are we still going on with this thing? I’d thought it would have died from boredom already. I mean, I’m the subject and I find it incredibly dull. It’s the first time I’ve pitted another Doper in an OP. Don’t I get a break? 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*But if it makes you feel any better, **Jeff** , it wasn’t meant as a slam. \* Thanks for the clarification. > [@](#): > > \*There’s an old belief among Persian rug weavers that they are not allowed to make a flawless rug – all of their works must be flawed in some way, as only God can be perfect, and they would never dare to presume themselves to be God. > > If it makes you feel any better, just think of my “schtick” as an obligatory flaw. :)\* Then can you at least put in some [imagination](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239083)? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/32 "2004-02-10T22:49:57Z")
Imagination costs extra, and I’m being frugal these days. After all, I’m still paying off(\*) that overpriced Mac o’mine, remember? 😉 (\* = No, I’m not. The new car, on the other hand…) ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/33 "2004-02-11T00:01:39Z")
Y’know, **rjung** and **yosemitebabe** , there’s a place here for witnessing… couldn’t you at least keep it reserved to that forum? 😉 Seriously, the Mac/PC debate has become so protracted that the “true believers” on both sides of the equation are just proselytizing, with little regard for those on the other side of the argument. **rjung** likes to cut into threads where a PC-related problem is obviously being discussed (such as the MyDoom virus), and wag his fingers at all the stupid PC users. As long as he recognizes that he’s not really adding anything useful to the discussion and likely inflaming tempers, then that’s his call to make. But I think it’s understandable that people get annoyed, given his condescending language and his choice of timing. **yosemitebabe** says that it’s excusable because the threads in question didn’t actually say “PC” on them. That’s like Bush saying now that he never said the word “imminent,” when everything he did say can be equated to meaning the same thing. In other words, to anyone of reasonable intelligence (which I think **rjung** and **yosemitebabe** are), most of those linked threads were obviously discussing PC-related problems/issues. Popping in with a snide comment about how Macs don’t have that particular problem isn’t helpful, and smacks of childish gloating. But again, as long as you guys are aware of that, have fun… _shrugs_ I honestly don’t have a dog in this hunt. I’ve used both PC’s and Macs fairly equally, for many different jobs, for at least 12 years now. I’ve had good and bad experiences with both, in about equal measure, and I’ve never had a serious virus problem on either. These days, I find that they’re about equal in terms of capability and stability, as long as the user knows what to do with them. I sit firmly in between the warring factions in the Mac/PC debate. Someday, I hope to help broker a peaceful treaty between the two. Or at the very least, a cease fire. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/34 "2004-02-11T01:16:37Z")
Yknow, I have a firm, deep hate for all that is Microsoft yet even **rjung** ’s arrogant comments piss me off. Leave the witnessing to GD? ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/35 "2004-02-11T03:52:55Z")
> [@Sofa King](#): > > I’ll tell you what, though. Microsoft is swiftly closing the gaps that once lay between their bullshit and Apple. I fear that if they don’t do something soon they’ll continue to fade away, despite their loyal fans. The thing is, though, that that has been said for nearly a decade. And for a while it was true. In 1997, even the most loyal Mac users feared that the time had come, what with MS’s $150M “investment” in Apple. When Bill Gates’ face loomed large over Steve Jobs at that year’s Macworld Expo, it felt like the beginning of the end. But look how things have changed. With the success of the iMac, G4, G5, iPod, and iTunes Music Store, Apple has never looked stronger. I would not be surprised if no other tech company has ever released a chain of products lines as successful in as short a period of time. On the other hand, I don’t recall a time where things were worse for MS. I don’t keep up with tech news as much as I used to, but it can’t solely be my imagination that MS has been (dare I say it) beleaguered in the last few years. MS has always been criticized for being slow to acknowledge and address their oftentimes criticial security flaws, but on top of that, in recent years they’ve had to deal with antitrust lawsuits, both domestic and abroad, major virus outbreaks, and real competition from Linux and Apple. I’m actually reading in the press that businesses and home users are turning away from MS products because of their lack of security or maintenance costs or a desire to use something else. This _never_ happened before. Even when MS was fighting its antitrust lawsuit against the US government, they still had the strength of an enormous body of users who seemed satisfied with their products. Now, there seems to be more people visibly searching for or at least open to MS alternatives. I’m not saying that MS is doomed, but I do think they’re no longer invincible. I also think what’s happening to them was inevitable. Their biggest threat has always been themselves. Re: the OP. I have to admit I cringe when I see **rjung** ’s posts about Macs. I can see how others see them as annoying, condescending, and inappropriate, because I’ve often felt that myself. I appreciate that he can be helpful and is not hostile in his comments, and I like seeing that Mac Evangelism isn’t dead. I also am delighted that a guy with an extensive background in computers proudly calls himself a Mac geek. But I do think there are better times and threads for his evangelism. If what a fellow but mellowed-out Mac user thinks counts for anything, I’d like to see him be helpful without witnessing, and save the pro-Mac stuff for when it’s truly needed or requested. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/36 "2004-02-11T04:06:15Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > But at the end of the day, OSX would suffer in the same way that XP does. You can’t test for every possible combination of hardware and software. I seriously doubt it would be any better then XP. In what way, pray tell, does XP suffer? And were you aware that Darwin, the BSD base of OS X, has already been quite easily ported to x86? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/37 "2004-02-11T04:19:31Z")
> [@Avalonian](#): > > **yosemitebabe** says that it’s excusable because the threads in question didn’t actually say “PC” on them. I’d really appreciate it if you’d pay attention. Really. I pointed out several of rjung’s posts as “gratuitous.” That means—they were not needed. I also even went to the trouble to give examples of _non-gratuitous_ comments that could be made on a thread, yes, even a thread about computers, and perhaps even a thread that was mostly about PCs. The OP did not find them unreasonable. Snide useless comments that add nothing are gratuitous. Comments that say, "Well, on my Mac it does _this_ . . . " are not necessarily gratuitous. My gosh, we are allowed to mention that we use Macs, aren’t we? Unless you want to make some universal proclamation about all computer talk being exclusively PC-only, or something. Which you _know_ is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/38 "2004-02-11T04:49:36Z")
Excellent analysis, **AudreyK**. I must say that I read the tea leaves the same way you do. This from a Fair And Balanced Mac user… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/39 "2004-02-11T05:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=hansel] In what way, pray tell, does XP suffer? [quote] It suffers in the sense that people bitch about it because it can’t cover every conceivable hardware/software configuration on the hundreds of millions of computers it runs on. Me? I think XP is dandy. > [@](#): > > And were you aware that Darwin, the BSD base of OS X, has already been quite easily ported to x86? Nope, i wasn’t aware of this, but I stand by my original point. Any OS that would take out XP would suffer from the same problems, and have just as many people digging for exploitations. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348/40 "2004-02-11T08:11:55Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Used to be that Microsoft could stay out of Anti-Competitive problems by allowing Apple to exist. Now that this is no longer true, I don’t know why Bill doesn’t crush them like a Saturday night tractor pull. Hell, I’d pony up to catch it on pay-per-view. > > There once was a time when Apples had niches where they could out-perform Windows, graphics, desktop publishing, etc. Now all those niches are gone. Every one of them. So now Apple is just a big compatibility wart on the face of computing, existing only because of initeria. > > Crush them with your mighty heel, Bill. Come _on_! I hate Macs with the burning fury of a thousand suns (I have to use them at school and hate hate hate hate the fucking things), but I emphatically do _not_ want Microsoft to get any more power or money. I’m not buying a Mac on this side of Hell freezing over, but I’d rather have a Mac than a Microsoft monopoly. As for the viruses… please, people. Morons get viruses. The only reason morons on Macs don’t get viruses is that Windows is a much more attractive target, primarily due to its market share. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-rjung-we-get-it-you-like-macs/228348.md?page=3)