# YES WE CAN! (if you're straight) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339 "2008-11-05T20:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/61 "2008-11-06T18:03:10Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > We’ll never know what would have happened if Obama made a statement saying gay marriage should be legal, but the candidates all moving toward a middle position in the elections is on of the things that makes people say that there is no real difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. We should all keep in mind that 90% of what the presidential candidates have said is total bullshit – both Obama _and_ McCain will say anything, regardless of their true opinions, if it helps them get elected. That’s why I’ve been trying to ignore this whole political process, because all the statements made on BOTH sides are 90% bullshit. IOW, it doesn’t bother me that Barack Obama expressed a negative attitude towards Calif. Prop 8 – if it helped HIM get elected, more power to him. What’s important now, of course, is how Barack Obama treats gays and gay rights now that he is, for all intents and purposes, our 44th POTUS. I think he’ll do a good job overall – he has the potential to be one of the greatest Presidents of all time, up there with Clinton, both Roosevelts, even Reagan & Lincoln. We shall find out in due time. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/62 "2008-11-06T18:30:09Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > That is a very good point. > > Which is why I suggest that the word “marriage” be struck from all civil legislation and replaced by “civil union”. After all, marriage was a religious institution before any government saw fit to regulate it, thereby infringing on the separation of church and state. I agree. Government should not be in the marriage business at all. Let there be an easy way for any people to form contractual relationships that bestow the rights that are typically afforded to married people - whether that’s a gay couple, a married couple, or elderly siblings living together. Call it whatever you want, but make it equally available to all. Let the churches do whatever they want in terms of ceremony and religious ritual. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/63 "2008-11-06T18:35:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, sure, but _do_ they? Not that I can tell. Googling around it was really scary and depressing just how organized the christian right is, and how often they boycott companies that aren’t sufficiently anti-gay. [McDonald’s stood up to them at least once.](http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=76919) Maybe I’ll have to pay an extra visit to Micky-D’s. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/64 "2008-11-07T21:50:51Z")
[Zompist says](http://zompist.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/sun-rises-emperor-tossed-into-pit-barad-dur-implodes/) > [@](#): > > My condolences to gays and lesbians for their losses in California and elsewhere. The consolation, though, is that victory is so close we can taste it. It won’t take another generation; it’ll be five or ten years. Look at the margin in California: 48-52. Or Arkansas of all places: 43-57. The right will count these as tactical victories, but they’ve lost the war. To be a cultural value, something (say, homophobia) has to be accepted by ultra-majorities— 80% or more. When it’s in the 50s, it’s just politics, and given current trends it will change very soon. I quote him since as an American, he probably has more insight into this issue and the attitudes of fellow Americans than I from over here, where most of the coverage has been on the Presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/65 "2008-11-07T23:34:25Z")
> [@XJETGIRLX](#): > > I agree. Government should not be in the marriage business at all. Let there be an easy way for any people to form contractual relationships that bestow the rights that are typically afforded to married people - whether that’s a gay couple, a married couple, or elderly siblings living together. Call it whatever you want, but make it equally available to all. > > Let the churches do whatever they want in terms of ceremony and religious ritual. I agree in principle this is correct, but I suspect politically it is a huge loser. ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/66 "2008-11-08T00:38:04Z")
The origins of marriage are (poetically) shrouded in the mists of history. It’s impossible to tell whether it was a state arrangement first or a religious one. Don’t let the religious folks fool you into believing they invented it; it’s jut not known. The secular concept of marriage is about as old as human history. We’ve always needed a way to verify paternity, determine who is eligible to inherit what, and to establish exclusive breeding rights. (Yeah, sexist, but so was human history for millennia.) There is a separate, religious concept called “holy matrimony.” Matrimony, as far as I’ve ever known, is not a word that has been associated with the secular recognition of couplehood. It’s always been a religious word to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, I propose that there is a legitimate right for the civil recognition to continue to be called “marriage” and the religious aspect of recognition to be called “matrimony”. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/67 "2008-11-08T01:25:31Z")
> [@jkusters](#): > > Any thoughts? I say we abolish Marriage entirely. Parenthood, too. Same with pregnancy. Neuter everyone, bring back Eugenics, and raise all future generations in a _Brave New World_ scenario, where embryos are raised in glass jars and labeled “Alpha”, “Beta”, etc. based on the function they are designed to perform for society. Meanwhile, let’s let anyone fuck anyone else they want (including animals, furniture, and other inanimate objects) as long as both parties have informed consent. Yes, that’s my genuine opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/68 "2008-11-08T05:47:07Z")
The passage of prop 8 is an insult to everyone, not just gay Americans. But everyone needs to drop the bitterness and anger and march on. I was just watching a rebroadcast of Obama’s acceptance speech and the camera zeroed in on Jesse Jackson. He had that face full of character, tears streaming down and holding an American flag over his shoulder. I realized just then the enormity of the moment, as this was a guy who marched on Selma…and he is watching an African American accepting the role of POTUS. Fucking incredible. So this speedbump is just that, a bump in the road. We’ll get there. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/69 "2008-11-11T09:52:45Z")
At issue is the fact that the same-sex marriage ban is not actually a ban on wedding ceremonies, it’s a ban on the _recognition_ of same-sex marriages. The actual text of the Constitutional amendment in California reads (paraphrasing): “Only marriage between a man and a woman shall be recognized as legal in California.” Forgetting about the obvious loophole (_everything_ except opposite-sex weddings is illegal in California?), the point is that the text clearly states that California is not to recognize same-sex marriages, whether they’re from California, Massachusetts or Copenhagen. Considering that the federal government also fails to recognize same-sex marriages and it’s not completely clear that even Massachusetts and Connecticut would recognize our SSM, I frankly don’t get why any California same-sex couples think they could stay married if Prop 8 withstands the various court challenges. Of course, Prop 8 is intentionally short and intentionally vague, partly so that it could pass more easily and partly (IMO) so that conservative and fundamentalist interests could keep their people riled up about it for a longer period of time. This whole mess is a politician’s dream, because it basically ensures that the nation’s most passionate voters will be swarming the polls in higher and higher numbers for some time to come. This is even better than the flag-burning bill the GOP kept trying to pass earlier in this decade. What I don’t get is where we got the notion that voters can directly, deliberately retard social progress in this country. OTOH, we’ve come a long way in the last 10 years, especially in California. I remember that when Prop 22 (the statutory SSM ban) was on the ballot around that time, you were actually automatically considered gay if you were thinking of voting “No” on it. That’s literally the reaction straight people would get when they told their friends they were going to vote “No”. A lot of people were shamed into voting “Yes”, and the idea of straight people voting “No” because they didn’t believe in taking other peoples’ rights away was considered suspicious, at least here in San Diego. > [@KGS](#): > > You know, all this marriage bullshit could be avoided if the lawmakers were willing to define a separate category called “Civil Union” or something like that, defined as a “union” between same-sex couples which carries all the rights, privileges, and tax benefits of marriage! Has anyone even proposed this compromise?? I know some conservative fundie Xtians who claim such a “Union” already exists, but they’re liars. Are you joking or trolling? > [@Sampiro](#): > > The weirdest thing to me is that in Arkansas, long the butt of jokes and regarded as a socially barbarically conservative backwater (like Alabama), only 5% more voters voted against gay marriage than in California, considered one of the most tolerant (and, by some, “enlightened”) states. They were not voting on marriage. > [@IGJoe](#): > > I’ve heard several times today that Prop 8 not only bans marriage, but all marriage-like institutions… ie civil unions and domestic partnerships. I haven’t been able to find anything like that in the text of the proposition though… is there anyone that knows for sure one way or the other? That’s not the text, that’s the Secretary of State’s summary. [This](http://www.voterguide.sos.ca.gov/text-proposed-laws/text-of-proposed-laws.pdf#prop8) is the text (PDF WARNING). > [@Antinor01](#): > > At this point I would take this ‘separate but equal’ compromise. It’s better then the neither separate nor equal we basically have now. (Yes, I know that domestic partnerships in CA are basically marriage but that doesn’t mean shit at the federal level or out of the state) Domestic partnerships aren’t close enough to marriage, even here. Anyway, they have you exactly where they want you: ready to accept permanent second-class citizen status. Don’t fall for it! > [@KGS](#): > > And those Yes On 8 posters sure disappeared quick, didn’t they? Wish I’d paid more attention to which houses hosted them… If you find yourself in San Diego, I can point out a handful of them to you. For educational purposes only, of course. > [@FriarTed](#): > > First, why? What would you do to the people who had those signs? Infringe on their civil rights, presumably. > [@KGS](#): > > KGSDad actually said, “Hispanics aren’t gay,” to which I replied, “You’d be surprised!” – but it’s true, I haven’t met any openly gay Hispanics… You clearly haven’t been hanging out at the same bars that I have, or, for that matter, reading craigslist. > [@Enola Gay](#): > > The passage of prop 8 is an insult to everyone, not just gay Americans. But everyone needs to drop the bitterness and anger and march on. I was just watching a rebroadcast of Obama’s acceptance speech and the camera zeroed in on Jesse Jackson. He had that face full of character, tears streaming down and holding an American flag over his shoulder. I realized just then the enormity of the moment, as this was a guy who marched on Selma…and he is watching an African American accepting the role of POTUS. Fucking incredible. So this speedbump is just that, a bump in the road. We’ll get there. Every muscle in my body literally relaxed when I got to the last two sentences quoted. Thanks for this. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/70 "2008-11-11T13:11:27Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > It’s certainly bittersweet to hear America disavow bigotry of one kind — electing a (half) African-American President Obama is African-American. There is no “half” about it. Almost every African-American alive is of mixed ancestry, and in Obama’s case, his father cannot reasonably be considered an African-American-- he was a Kenyan, from Africa, who happened to live in the US for a few years. Having said that, it is very unfortunate that the current political climate in the US is still largely anti-SSM. But that’s changing fast. Maybe not fast enough, but it is still changing. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/71 "2008-11-11T14:21:49Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] BTW, KGSDad thinks that Prop. 8 passed because “illegally registered” Hispanics voted for it – they’re all members of the Catholic church, and most of them are culturally biased against gays (KGSDad actually said, “Hispanics aren’t gay,” to which I replied, “You’d be surprised!” – but it’s true, I haven’t met any openly gay Hispanics…) L.A. County, for example, voted pro-8 despite being the Second Gayest County in CA after San Francisco – here’s a cite. [/QUOTE] Maybe **KGSDad** belongs to the school of thought that Spaniards aren’t Hispanics. I’d like to invite him to, say, take a walk around Chueca, go to the beach in Salou or attend the Carnival Drag Queen Contest in Tenerife. Think he’ll be interested, **KGS**? ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339/72 "2008-11-11T15:12:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Obama is African-American. There is no “half” about it. Almost every African-American alive is of mixed ancestry, and in Obama’s case, his father cannot reasonably be considered an African-American-- he was a Kenyan, from Africa, who happened to live in the US for a few years. Jesus fucking Christ, Captain Nitpick. **Half-Black, then.** Thank you for protecting the world from my insidious lies. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-we-can-if-youre-straight/471339.md?page=3)