# Yes, you can go to prison for nothing more than expressing your views on a message board **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353 "2010-06-15T21:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/21 "2010-06-16T00:27:49Z")
I think some of the confusion here is that post #13 starts out by agreeing with post #12, but then talks about “views of their government” instead of “threatens violence against the President”, which is what \*\*selinus \*\*said in post #12. There’s a lot of space between those two things, much of what is, and should be, perfectly legal for anyone in this country to do, citizen or not. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/22 "2010-06-16T00:34:14Z")
It is weird to think, though, that just by logging into the SDMB drunk and posting some specific ideas on what you’d drunkenly like to do to somebody and then forget about it the next day, you could net yourself some serious federal jail time. NOT THAT I EVER WOULD DO SUCH A THING, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Or alternately leave yourself logged in and your roommate decides to be a cut-up by posting under your name. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/23 "2010-06-16T00:38:59Z")
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran… From what I can tell the guy was encouraging Iraqis to kill US officials. But I wouldn’t consider that the same as actively planning crimes yourself. To me it sounds like he was rooting for the Iraqis in the Iraq war. Not kosher if you want to live in the US, but I don’t think that rooting for other people is the same as planning a crime yourself. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/24 "2010-06-16T00:45:03Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran… > From what I can tell the guy was encouraging Iraqis to kill US officials. But I wouldn’t consider that the same as actively planning crimes yourself. Based on that, Osama Bin Laden may not have committed crimes. Do we have evidence he was actively involved in the planning of any attacks against the US, or just the encouragement? I don’t want to go to the extremes on this, but I don’t find anything wrong with the principle of the law. I probably have problems with its application though. I’d like to see more detail about this case. Seems to me in this particular case it would have been easier to use this incident as an excuse to deport the ingrate. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/25 "2010-06-16T00:48:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > "Views of their government’ is not what is at issue here. While you might not want to express your “views of their government” when in Malaysia, anyone legally in the US should be able to express those views. It’s the issue of threatening violence that is at the core of this case. Assuming he did credibly threaten violence, that’s not just a “view”. Yes. However in Malaysia criticizing the government is considered sedition and is against the law there. That is why I kept that to myself when I was there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/26 "2010-06-16T00:57:57Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Yes. However in Malaysia criticizing the government is considered sedition and is against the law there. That is why I kept that to myself when I was there. Agreed. But you sure seemed to be implying that your experience should carry over to the US. It doesn’t and it shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/27 "2010-06-16T01:29:34Z")
Yep. There are a handful of things you can’t even joke about (another is bombs on a plane,) and I guess we have to accept it. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/28 "2010-06-16T01:37:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > My point isn’t that this guy was innocent. My point was that some of the sentiments prior to mine were going a fair bit further on the “don’t try out that free speech thing” - taking it beyond where I was comfortable with it. But even we natural born citizens of the US are not allowed to call for the death of the president without risk of being convicted of that law, so how is it a free speech issue for him, but not us? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/29 "2010-06-16T01:39:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Agreed. But you sure seemed to be implying that your experience should carry over to the US. It doesn’t and it shouldn’t. What should carry over is that when you are a guest in a country, you should follow their laws or be prepared to pay the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/30 "2010-06-16T01:49:51Z")
I went over to read this guy’s posts. Gosh, we’re geniuses! (At least in comparison.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/31 "2010-06-16T02:34:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m not sure that I’m comfortable with the idea that foreigners should feel like they should keep their heads down lest the gestapo come and drag them away. How far up does one’s head have to be to call for the rape and murder of Laura Bush? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/32 "2010-06-16T03:46:30Z")
Well said, \*\* Bryan Ekers\*\*. I’m not actually sure how I feel about the illegality of him wanting Iraqis to kill the president —I mean, the two countries were at war, and the president is the head of the military, and the dude isn’t an American citizen\* —but I can’t imagine why advocating the rape of Laura Bush should be legal. \*Note, I am _not_ saying it’s okay to advocate killing the president. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/33 "2010-06-16T05:23:13Z")
Well, To threaten anyone is an illegal act. If I am mad with you and tell you that I am going to kill him and his entire family, that’s a threat and a crime. People go to jail for threats all the time. Now if I said that President Idiot Monkey and President Kenya Dude should get ran over by a truck or eaten alive by wild dogs, I dunno if that meets the criteria of threat. Also, saying that someone should do this might be over the line. There are laws against “inciting” a riot, or "inciting " someone to do something, or to be an accessory before the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/34 "2010-06-16T08:58:54Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > From what I can tell the guy was encouraging Iraqis to kill US officials. But I wouldn’t consider that the same as actively planning crimes yourself. From the language he used, he certainly had a lot of anger towards the Iraq war, but his call for violence was not limited to Iraqis killing Americans. And he wasn’t charged with actively planning any crimes, such as the attempted murder of the president, first lady, vice president, or SecDef, nor was he charged with conspiracy to murder them (especially since conspiracy would require identifying another individual who was involved). He was charged with, among at least one other charge, of violating 18 USC 871 which states: > [@18 USC 871](#): > > (a) Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, **or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.** ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/35 "2010-06-16T13:32:02Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > It is weird to think, though, that just by logging into the SDMB drunk and posting some specific ideas on what you’d drunkenly like to do to somebody and then forget about it the next day, you could net yourself some serious federal jail time. NOT THAT I EVER WOULD DO SUCH A THING, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Or alternately leave yourself logged in and your roommate decides to be a cut-up by posting under your name. I clicked on the links above and read the limited examples of what this guy wrote and it hardly seems this was anything like a one time instance of drunk posting of rants about GWB, et al. He made some pretty specific threats against several people on a number of occasions. Others have mentioned it would be helpful to be able to see more of the evidence shown to the jury in convicting this guy and I agree. However, after reading the text of 18 USC 871 posted by **Camus** I am able to begin to get an idea how this guy got into this situation. Also, in the news story linked above they mention that he logged on the message board on more than one occasion using other people’s accounts. I would expect such an overt attempt to conceal his identity when making some of these posts didn’t do him any favors with law enforcement. It also indicates to me some degree of knowledge on his part that the threats he was posting were over the line. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/36 "2010-06-16T15:37:40Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > He was charged with, among at least one other charge, of violating 18 USC 871 which states: Hmmm. It looks like if he had just threatened Laura Bush they couldnt have nailed him on that and would have had to prosecute on the more general “threatening someone is illegal” laws that I’ve always had the impression were pretty darn weak when it came to actually putting someone in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/37 "2010-06-16T16:40:31Z")
My assumption here is that the posts are the sole evidence in this case. Given that, I see no reasonable way that they could constitute a credible threat of any kind. > [@Silenus](#): > > Let’s see…a foreign national, in this country on a student visa, threatens violence against the President and others and is sent to prison for it. A jury examined the evidence and found him guilty. Barring some missed information, I say fuck him. He isn’t above the law. If anything, you’d think that when you are in another country, you refrain from openly and vocally calling for the death of its leaders. Let him rot for stupidity if nothing else. This is a reprehensible viewpoint. First of all, the issue under discussion is _our_ laws and _our_ rights and whether our law here is what it should be. Putting someone in prison for nothing more than stupidity displays a callous disregard for any notions of justice. And the law or the government has no business in enforcing “gratitude.” > [@TriPolar](#): > > How would you distinquish between someone using a message board to organize a terrorist attack and a rant or flame? Did he have knowledge that some specific individual or group of individuals was likely to see his message and likely to take action in response? Was it his intent to communicate with such an individual or group? Is there any proof that such conspiracies were being conducted in such manner? > [@astro](#): > > If by “expressing your views” you means threats of death and encouraging others to kill someone while within the political boundaries of the area you wish this activity take place, I can’t recall any time in US history when this has not been considered a criminal act. > > Is is your assertion that these expressions are protected speech? It is criminal to make a threat against someone. It is my view that these statements do not reasonably constitute threats. We as members of a free society should be free to state our wish for any sort of atrocity to be committed against our political leaders with impunity unless it is shown that such statements are part of some concrete attempt to bring about such result. > [@Camus](#): > > “… the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except _ **where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action** _.” Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (U.S. 1969). The boldfaced and italicized part is exactly what seems to be missing from this case. > [@](#): > > According to the site that **TriPolar** linked to, Buddhi specifically included words like “soon” and “now” that didn’t just advocate possible violent action or violent action one day, but immediate violent action. And to me such words seem like nothing more than opinion or hyperbole. > [@](#): > > The only real question is whether his posts were likely to incite or lead to the violence he calls for. What do you mean when you say “the only real question.” This seems to me a critical difference between a genuine threat and mere running at the mouth.’ > [@TriPolar](#): > > What if he was communicating with people intending to carry out those acts? The threats are explicit, and the crime lies in his belief that someone will carry them out. What do you mean “what if”? The law doesn’t get to say “what if”? Was he or wasn’t he communicating with people intending to carry out those acts? > [@Dan\_Norder](#): > > A civilized country where threats and encouragement of imminent violence are punishable by law. This is a completely empty statement. Such words can be used to defend any reprehensible act of any brutal dictatorship – China, Burma, North Korea, you name it. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > To me it sounds like he was rooting for the Iraqis in the Iraq war. Not kosher if you want to live in the US What do you mean by kosher? There certainly should be no legal repercussions for such opinion. > [@Superhal](#): > > Yep. There are a handful of things you can’t even joke about (another is bombs on a plane,) and I guess we have to accept it. I reject the suggestion that this is analogous to a passenger joking about bombing a plane. It’s like someone sitting at home on his computer joking about bombs on a plane. > [@straight\_man](#): > > but I can’t imagine why advocating the rape of Laura Bush should be legal. We should be able to “advocate” any damn shit, if “advocate” means nothing more than running at the mouth a few times. Any punishment for advocating or threatening a crime should be based on higher standards than that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/38 "2010-06-16T16:43:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > My assumption here is that the posts are the sole evidence in this case. Given that we’re told those posts are a “snippet”, that seems like a really stupid assumption to make. Unless, of course you have a predetermined conclusion and you are looking for assumptions that will back up that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/39 "2010-06-16T17:06:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Given that we’re told those posts are a “snippet”, that seems like a really stupid assumption to make. Unless, of course you have a predetermined conclusion and you are looking for assumptions that will back up that conclusion. Well, can we at least agree that those “snippets,” by themselves, are not actionable? They certainly don’t look it to me. I would, however, be interested to see a fuller record of what evidence was shown against him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353/40 "2010-06-16T17:28:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Given that we’re told those posts are a “snippet”, that seems like a really stupid assumption to make. Unless, of course you have a predetermined conclusion and you are looking for assumptions that will back up that conclusion. No, it’s not a stupid assumption. It’s an assumption that forms a basis for a conversation and inferences. It’s the basis of the discussion I want to have. If the assumption is _wrong_, then show me it’s wrong. All that might do is demonstrate that this particular case isn’t a true example of what concerns me. It wouldn’t invalidate the principles in question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-can-go-to-prison-for-nothing-more-than-expressing-your-views-on-a-message-board/543353.md?page=3)