# Yes, you DO have to show that voter fraud is actually happening **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067 "2012-06-04T19:06:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/1 "2012-06-04T19:06:17Z")
On another forum, there’s this discussion going on about Voter ID laws and how Florida governor Rick Scott is purging voters from the rolls and all kinds of things, and immediately, a right-wing fellow popped up. In referral to the original topic (a news story about how Florida is retracting the obscenely broken voter registration purges), he said this: > [@](#): > > I believe the answer is they just want to stop dogs, cats, and dead people from voting Democratic, canceling out the votes of people with a right to representation. > > I’m sure this will mean an explosion of voter fraud. Outrageous. When pressured about why he thought that, he offered this answer: > [@](#): > > From NPR: 1.8 million dead people still on the voter rolls. We have to purge these, or they will, by and large, I think, “vote”. And then this: > [@](#): > > Among the reasons Republicans believe that voter fraud is rampant, aside from anecdotal evidence is that the left’s fight against curbs on voter fraud, such as requiring photo id, seems crazy to us, IF, they are genuinely concerned with clean elections. I have not yet finished reviewing your links, which include ACLU briefs on the matter. Should make for interesting reading, thank you. And then, after a while, this: > [@](#): > > > [@another guy](#): > > > > ``` > > So you don't know. But you're going to go ahead and assume it's a crisis anyway? > > > > ``` > > Correct. There is no middle finger big enough. Guys, if you want to say “voter fraud is a real problem”, you don’t just get to say “there’s no proof that it isn’t”. _Especially_ not when someone has already pointed out to you that numerous investigations have come up with rates that are miniscule to the point of unimportance. On one hand, I have to respect the balls of this guy to basically say “I don’t have any evidence that voter fraud is widespread”, then later turn around and say, quote: > [@](#): > > It is difficult to quantify with any kind of accuracy the extent of the fraud with anecdotes only. But remember, in a close election, you don’t need to tilt things 51%, just the odd 0.5%. > > It’s a serious issue. How do people like this even breathe? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/2 "2012-06-04T19:20:13Z")
If voter fraud were a large problem, how would it be identified, given the lack of things like voter ID? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/3 "2012-06-04T19:29:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If voter fraud were a large problem, how would it be identified, given the lack of things like voter ID? That’s the issue. But I think the person the OP is discussing with could certainly start with all the dead people he claims who will be voting. Certainly it’d be easy enough to match up those who are dead and still vote for him to support his argument. Or point to elections in the last…10 years?..for it to be a valid position to hold. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/4 "2012-06-04T19:36:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If voter fraud were a large problem, how would it be identified, given the lack of things like voter ID? Exit polls are generally somewhat reliable. Matching up the names of the people who voted with the names on the voting rolls, and ensuring that the voting rolls are kept up to date would generally work fairly well, don’t you think? I don’t presume to know how investigations into voter fraud work, but I do think it’s fair to assume that we’re not dealing with _complete_ morons, and that there are methods in place. What has been found, however, is that most discovered types of voter fraud would not actually be caught by using voter ID laws. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/5 "2012-06-04T19:37:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If voter fraud were a large problem, how would it be identified, given the lack of things like voter ID? Sure, but that’s not the argument that’s presented. IF (and that’s a BIG IF) somebody said, “I support stronger voter ID to quantify the extent to which, if any, voter fraud occurs and to develop stronger mechanisms to address voter fraud”, that would be a reasonable position. This ass appears to be taking the default position of, “Voter fraud is definitely occurring, and we need stronger voter ID to eliminate it. And it’s not happening in large numbers but I’m going to throw out large numbers anyway and assume it affects races”. Thinking about ways to prove voter fraud is a problem and thinking of solutions is reasonable. Assuming, in the face of available evidence, that it exists and disenfranchising actual voters to eliminate a potential non-issue is asinine and fuck-all stupid. And while voter fraud may be a potential issue in narrow races, [disenfranchising real voters](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-aggressively-purges-voter-registration-files-3607896.php) by purging rolls is an problem with plenty of evidence to show it’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/6 "2012-06-04T19:40:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > How do people like this even breathe? Through the mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/7 "2012-06-04T19:56:18Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Through the mouth. That’s pretty impressive, I probably couldn’t breathe through an orifice completely occupied by horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/8 "2012-06-04T19:58:48Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Sure, but that’s not the argument that’s presented. > > IF (and that’s a BIG IF) somebody said, “I support stronger voter ID to quantify the extent to which, if any, voter fraud occurs and to develop stronger mechanisms to address voter fraud”, that would be a reasonable position. > > This ass appears to be taking the default position of, “Voter fraud is definitely occurring, and we need stronger voter ID to eliminate it. And it’s not happening in large numbers but I’m going to throw out large numbers anyway and assume it affects races”. > > Thinking about ways to prove voter fraud is a problem and thinking of solutions is reasonable. Well, you raise a good point. I don’t take the position that it’s definitely occurring in any statistically significant way. My argument has always been simply that voter ID laws make sense to strengthen the confidence of the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/9 "2012-06-04T19:59:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If voter fraud were a large problem, how would it be identified, given the lack of things like voter ID? Elections always swinging on one side by a large margin would be a red flag, certainly. But I’m given to understand Floridian elections were a notably close thing every time ? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/10 "2012-06-04T20:00:28Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > And while voter fraud may be a potential issue in narrow races, [disenfranchising real voters](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-aggressively-purges-voter-registration-files-3607896.php) by purging rolls is an problem with plenty of evidence to show it’s happening. Nor do I generally favor these purges. in fact, I’d say that adopting a strong voter ID law eliminates the need for purges; we can use the voter ID to effectively identify who voted and if they voted illegally. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/11 "2012-06-04T20:03:48Z")
Next you are going to say that Obama has to prove that he is not really a Kenyan. Placing the burden of proof by the party that is asserting the absurd onto the party asserting the normal is the only way to debate a conspiracy theory. Said the guy who thinks Oswald was put up to it and was a CIA asset. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/12 "2012-06-04T20:14:09Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Next you are going to say that Obama has to prove that he is not really a Kenyan. Lousy example. Obama has a birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/13 "2012-06-04T20:22:53Z")
The federal and state governments routinely regulate things that are not “real” problems. Have you ever been to California? Every single thing in that state is publicly labeled as a potential carcinogen, despite the fact that I’m sure many of those substances have never demonstrably caused a single cancer (just to list one example). If the government can identify a legitimate interest, and there is no violation of the constitution in doing so, then the legislature can go ahead and pass laws that address the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/14 "2012-06-04T20:24:04Z")
If vote fraud IS happening what proof exists they’re disproportionately cast for democrats? Cause it is certainly true that those voters most likely to be turned away for lack of proper identification would vote democratic (students, homeless etc.) ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/15 "2012-06-04T20:28:40Z")
How the hell else did we end up with a black President with a Muslim name, for chrissakes? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/16 "2012-06-04T20:31:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, you raise a good point. I don’t take the position that it’s definitely occurring in any statistically significant way. My argument has always been simply that voter ID laws make sense to strengthen the confidence of the electorate. And the fact that it’s most likely to reduce Democratic voting is just an unexpected plum in your delicious _pie of confidence_, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/17 "2012-06-04T20:32:19Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Next you are going to say that Obama has to prove that he is not really a Kenyan. Placing the burden of proof by the party that is asserting the absurd onto the party asserting the normal is the only way to debate a conspiracy theory. Said the guy who thinks Oswald was put up to it and was a CIA asset. What’s the absurd? And furthermore, why should _I_ have the burden of proof when someone else is actually making the claim? “There’s widespread, significant voter fraud, therefore we need voter ID laws.” I’m not making a claim. The burden of proof is on them – THEY have to show that voter fraud is happening. > [@Bricker](#): > > Nor do I generally favor these purges. in fact, I’d say that adopting a strong voter ID law eliminates the need for purges; we can use the voter ID to effectively identify who voted and if they voted illegally. Of course, that would likely be a purge of its own… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/18 "2012-06-04T20:44:33Z")
Gosh, **Bricker** , haven’t heard anything about the crucial importance of the confidence of the electorate? Have you abandoned that party line, then? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/19 "2012-06-04T20:48:31Z")
Everybody knows that the dead vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067/20 "2012-06-04T20:55:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If voter fraud were a large problem, how would it be identified, given the lack of things like voter ID? Then how did it get to be identified now? How is a lack of evidence proof of something? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yes-you-do-have-to-show-that-voter-fraud-is-actually-happening/624067.md?page=2)