# Yet another abortion thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927 "2003-01-25T23:23:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/1 "2003-01-25T23:23:10Z")
For the purposes of this thread, I’d like to set one rule. - the fetus _is_ a living human being Whether or not you are pro-life or pro-choice, the above holds true for this discussion. I’d like to avoid this thread being hijacked into yet another debate on whether or not it is a human, and at what point it becomes human, so let’s just assume it is a living human being from the moment fertilisation is completed. FTR, I am pro-choice and I do believe the rule I’ve set down. I hold that a person can not be forced to safe another’s life. They are able to withhold blood, organs, tissue and even their uterus, even though this action may ensure the other person will die. A mother’s two year old may desperately need a kidney, or a section of liver, or some blood. The mother may be the only compatible person known. I contend that the mother cannot be forced to provide whatever tissue the toddler needs against her will. I also hold that you may think whatever you like about the mother, feel she is completely immoral and even say so, but the fact still holds that if she does not wish to donate her blood, tissue or organs, even if doing so saves a life, she is under no legal obligation to do so. I also hold this same position for the pregnant woman. She is under no legal obligation to donate the use of her uterus to a fetus/baby. By all means, if the fetus is viable, other people can save it once it’s removed from the uterus, but if the woman no longer wishes to have her uterus used by another human being, she is under no obligation to do so. If it’s too early to save the fetus, unfortunately it will die. If it is viable, others who feel the urge to save it can. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/2 "2003-01-25T23:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > **I hold that a person can not be forced to safe another’s life.** Why do we obligate parents to care for their children, and prosecute them for child endangerment when they starve their children to near death? ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/3 "2003-01-25T23:41:07Z")
If you hold parents to a standard of care for their born children, why do you change your mind with regardin to unborn children, which you admit are persons? ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/4 "2003-01-25T23:48:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Not only are children not responsible for the consequences of a mother’s pregnancy upon herself, neither are they to blame for their need to remain in the womb. This need is something we impose upon them when we create them. The child’s life and needs are a package deal. > > Once having brought children into a state of dependency, we have the obligation to bring them safely out. This means we must wait until they are able to come “out” safely. This also means parental obligation continues after childbirth. > > As one libertarian said about abortion: Creating a child is like inviting someone into your home and rendering him incapable of living on the outside for nine months. We have no right to toss him out. Another libertarian, a psychiatrist, made an even stronger analogy. He said when we create children, it could be said we create “captives”. We are not entitled to kill captives nor endanger them. In fact, we have the obligation to care for them while they are captive and to see that they gain release from their “captivity.” This means in the case of children, we have the duty to bring them to a state where they can take care of themselves. > > Sometimes I hear the argument that yes, it is true that the unborn child needs care and thus is in harm’s way. However, they say, we’ve given the gift of life, something so valuable, that we bear no net obligation. The answer is that we do not have the right to force a gift upon anyone, and that we did not get the child’s permission. This is not a case where the child freely accepts the good with the bad. So we are still responsible for protecting the child from harm. The net gain to the child is irrelevant. Our obligation comes from the fact that we impose the situation upon children without their assent. > > Where parents choose not to fulfill their duty to children, such as when they choose to have an abortion, others are entitled to defend the child’s rights, for such defense is no aggression upon anyone. More may be found here: [How I Became Pro-Life: Remarks on Abortion, Parental Obligation, and the Draft by Doris Gordon (entered into the Congressional Record by the Hon. Ron Paul, Rep. of Texas](http://www.l4l.org/library/congrecord.html) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/5 "2003-01-26T00:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by il Topo \* > \*\*If you hold parents to a standard of care for their born children, why do you change your mind with regardin to unborn children, which you admit are persons? \*\* In addition, abortion isn’t merely a failure to care for one’s children. It is the active and deliberate dismemberment of those helpless individuals, which goes far beyond merely refusing to care for them. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/6 "2003-01-26T05:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*As one libertarian said about abortion: Creating a child is like inviting someone into your home and rendering him incapable of living on the outside for nine months. We have no right to toss him out. \*\* And getting pregnant while raped is like “inviting someone into your home”? What fucking crap. There is no comparison between a real live outside womb human being and a small bunch of cells, a “pre-child.” All these abortion threads recently have really made me even more strongly pro-choice, in the main because the anti-abortion arguments are so fking poor. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/7 "2003-01-26T06:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > **And getting pregnant while raped is like “inviting someone into your home”? What fucking crap. There is no comparison between a real live outside womb human being and a small bunch of cells, a "pre-child."** Wait a minute. Are you saying that you _still_ think the fetus is nothing but [a small bunch of cells](http://www.unborn.com)? Even professional pro-choice debaters have long abandoned that argument, especially now that fetal photos and ultrasound images are so terribly commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/8 "2003-01-26T12:02:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*Wait a minute. Are you saying that you _still_ think the fetus is nothing but [a small bunch of cells](http://www.unborn.com)? > \*\* Did istara actually **read** the entire OP? > [@](#): > > For the purposes of this thread, I’d like to set one rule. > > - the fetus _is_ a living human being It sounds like the OP wasn’t interested in debating that particular point in this thread…so I wonder why istara would deliberately do that then? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/9 "2003-01-26T12:10:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*In addition, abortion isn’t merely a failure to care for one’s children. It is the active and deliberate dismemberment of those helpless individuals, which goes far beyond merely refusing to care for them. \*\* Well said, I think. This sums it up nicely. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/10 "2003-01-26T13:16:46Z")
Yes - I read the OP. My issue wasn’t with the OP, but that ridiculous quote. And no - except for the very early stages - I am aware that it isn’t “just a little bunch of cells.” I wrote that in anger, but I am still angry with what I perceive (perhaps wrongly) with the lack of sympathy towards raped women demonstrated by the quote. I agree with the OP as it happens. My god, I hope I never live in a country where women are forced to go back to knitting needles and throwing themselves down stairs. Your body is your sovereign body, it is for you alone, and it is your right what should happen to it and who should make use of it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/11 "2003-01-26T13:35:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*My god, I hope I never live in a country where women are forced to go back to knitting needles and throwing themselves down stairs. Your body is your sovereign body, it is for you alone, and it is your right what should happen to it and who should make use of it. \*\* That right does not exist currently, not in the U.S. anyway. One does not have an unencumbered right to do as one pleases with one’s body. Does your support of “sovereignty” extent beyond abortion rights? ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/12 "2003-01-26T14:16:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Your body is your sovereign body, it is for you alone, and it is your right what should happen to it and who should make use of it. As Bob Cos said, this simply isn’t true. You cannot sell your body for sex no matter how much you want to without getting arrested for it. You also cannot partake of illegal drugs. Like it or not, your sovereign body is subject to the laws of the land. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/13 "2003-01-26T16:20:38Z")
That is absurd and clearly not what I meant. It is not about using your body for illegal activities. It is about **no one else** being able to use your body - for legal activities or otherwise - without your permission. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/14 "2003-01-26T16:24:50Z")
And that’s supposed to merit the death penalty? A penalty that’s administered without the benefit of due process? For an innocent who had neither choice nor complicity in the matter? Great googly moogly. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/15 "2003-01-26T17:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > **And getting pregnant while raped is like “inviting someone into your home”? What fucking crap.** Where did you get the impression that the author of the quote was trying to address the issue of rape? I assumed it referred to a consensual act that risked pregnancy, like all consensual sex, even protected sex, does. Pregnancies due to rape must be dealt with by other arguments, such as a prohibition of transferring harm from one innocent victim (the raped mother) to another (the unborn baby). As a society, if we transfer harm from where it happens to fall, we only do so to a more responsible party, never to an innocent who had nothing to do with the initial harmful act. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/16 "2003-01-26T17:59:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by istara_ > That is absurd and clearly not what I meant. It is not about using your body for illegal activities. It is about no one else being able to use your body - for legal activities or otherwise - without your permission. First, it was _not_ clear as you didn’t define sovereignty. Generally, the point still stands that you do not have the right to do as you wish with your own body. To answer your question I have to hypothetically grant that your strong view of personal autonomy is correct which is quite a stretch in itself. Secondly, in the case of abortion there are two bodies under discussion. Not just yours. The fetus has its own distinct genetic code and gender, blood type, and bone structure. While (through no fault of its own) it is attached to the mother it is not a _part_ of the mothers body as you seem to be insinuating. Yes, the mothers body is providing resources to the fetus via the placenta. Yes, there are some rather unpleasant side effects associated with pregnancy. However, the unpleasant effects felt by the woman during pregnancy pale into insignificance when held against the unpleasant effects abortion has on a fetus (it’s cognitive inability not withstanding). If we are to assume in this thread that the fetus is fully human then abortion is not justified, since no one’s right to personal autonomy is so strong that it permits the execution of others. Especially if the very existance of the “others” in question is a direct consequence of the actions of the mother (excepting pregnancies from rape). ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/17 "2003-01-26T19:15:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*And getting pregnant while raped is like “inviting someone into your home”? What fucking crap. > > All these abortion threads recently have really made me even more strongly pro-choice, in the main because the anti-abortion arguments are so fking poor. \*\* You responded by saying the quote does not properly apply to rape, but you left other issues open. Do you then admit that the quote is quite descriptive of an abortion after one risks pregnancy through consensual sex? If not, why not? If you have a hard time answering, what does that say for the “poor” pro-life arguments. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/18 "2003-01-26T19:22:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > **I wrote that in anger, but I am still angry with what I perceive (perhaps wrongly) with the lack of sympathy towards raped women demonstrated by the quote.** I think the “invite” part is what shows that the quote demonstrates nothing with regard to rape victims. Failure to comment on a topic is not a lack of sympathy for a topic. > [@](#): > > \*\*Your body is your sovereign body, it is for you alone, and it is your right what should happen to it and who should make use of it. \*\* I actually agree with this 100%, perhaps even to the point of legalizing drug use and prostitution, at least one of which is against my religion and both of which _I_ would never do. But I do recognize that my right to swing my fist anywhere ends with the beginning of your face. When more than one person are involved (e.g., mother and unborn), our right to do anything with our bodies is really only a right to take any action to which there is not an unconsenting victim. The OP states that there is an unconsenting victim to abortion–an unborn person. Thus, the issue is more complex than your immediately above quote suggests. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/19 "2003-01-26T19:32:09Z")
Many women and girls with unwanted pregnancies will choose abortion, regardless of legality. The question is, will they have access to safe abortions? Safe abortions are available to all women (including the young and the poor) when the procedure is legal. Outlaw abortion, and the result is that many women and girls with unwanted pregnancies will die and be injured from “back alley” abortions and attemps to induce miscarriage. Restrict abortion, and whatever group\* is denied the right to legal abortions will resort to back alleys and self-induced miscarriage. \*Girls under 18, women who don’t have a “good enough” reason, etc. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927/20 "2003-01-26T19:42:52Z")
Hazel, \<\\> I’m not saying your position isn’t valid, just that this particular argument isn’t. Can you see how your argument doesn’t carry any weight with someone who believes abortion is murder? If you want to convince a pro-lifer like me, I think you should choose another tact. If you are merely preaching to the choir of pro-choicers, then you are doing fine. Don’t get me wrong. Both sides are guilty of using arguments which preach to themselves rather than speak to the other side. Do you find it very convincing when a pro-lifer says, “God is pro-life?” I didn’t think so. Why do they find it such a great line? Because they don’t realize it only preaches to themselves, and carries no convincing value for the other side. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-abortion-thread/150927.md?page=2)