# Yet Another Doper Relationship Advice Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 11, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352 "2011-10-11T22:38:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/21 "2011-10-12T19:38:42Z")
> [@raspberry\_hunter](#): > > Well, true, but Judaism is a bit different, not least because it is not an actively proselytizing religion, and also because the culture is much more different than the mainstream than (say) mainstream Christianity. (I see where you’re coming from – I hail from Mormon culture, which yeah, can we say different and sometimes separating? But I think that this is not necessarily such a problem for the OP.) OP hasn’t stated what religion his girlfriend is, though. I was trying not to assume. I just brought up the Jewish examples, since that’s what I know. Mormon, yes I kind of doubt that, since it doesn’t seem like young Mormons tend to be casually religious–either they’re proselytic or no longer Mormons by the time they hit adulthood. I could be wrong and it’s a gross generalization, but I just don’t get the feeling she’s Mormon. I do get a feeling she could be Jewish or a Christian of generic denomination. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/22 "2011-10-12T19:43:55Z")
If you really really really want to be with her, then offer to support her religious beliefs and that you will keep your mind open to them. You don’t have to tell her you will convert, but just be supportive and say that you will be glad to join her in finding a congregation that you both can agree on. I’m a fairly strong atheist (though not a militant one), but my entire family is very religious. Sometimes they ask me to go to church (and kind of expect it), and I actually find the experience mostly enjoyable. There’s a lot of good teaching going on in churches, depending on the denomination or whatever. Even a hard, open minded atheist like me can find church to be a warm, welcoming, rewarding experience sometimes. So I say that you should be able to as well, even if you never expect to believe in God or any spiritual beliefs. If it means a lot to her, and you have something to gain from it, then I think you should be open minded about it. ETA: I have a friend who has been married for a couple years now to a devout catholic, and he himself is atheist. Religion is important to her, and he supports it. He nominally converted to Catholicism so they could have a catholic wedding. It _can_ be done but both people have to be open minded about it. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/23 "2011-10-12T19:50:40Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > The trouble with a non-religious person dating a religious person is that the religious person thinks they are in the right, and the non-religious person is in the wrong, and the non-religious person should be constantly pressured to become more religious, rather than the religious person becoming less religious.\* Look at this ridiculous discussion we’re having here, where non-religious people are discriminated against by the religious with impunity. > > **Munch,** maybe your response to her should be, “Well, I can’t see myself dating someone as prejudiced as you are, so I don’t see a lot of future here.” > > \*Yes, I do have some baggage about this. I didn’t care for being pressured by my ex-boyfriend and his family. Your broad brush is absurd. I’m a religious person and I don’t think anyone is right or wrong. Sorry you’re all bitter about this but don’t go making up thoughts and feelings for a whole group of people. I’ve dated atheist guys and thought nothing of their views. I’ve dated a super-religious guy and thought he was off his rocker. I have never once thought anything about anyone being “right.” It’s not a battle or a fight it’s a belief. And “discriminated against”? Please. If the woman said “I can’t date you because I just can’t handle being with a guy who might go bald in 5 years” would she be discriminated or discerning? There’s plenty of shit people have as “dealbreakers” and for this woman it’s religion. It’s sad if both of the parties are into each other but it’s not a case for the ACLU. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/24 "2011-10-12T20:25:04Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I’ve dated atheist guys and thought nothing of their views. I’ve dated a super-religious guy and thought he was off his rocker. I have never once thought anything about anyone being “right.” Isn’t the whole point of believing in a specific religion is to feel that your religion is “right” and that the other religions are “wrong”? Even if you just generally believe in God w/o organized religion, you still would believe you were “right” compared to an atheist that doesn’t believe in God? ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/25 "2011-10-12T20:27:22Z")
Written posts are not the best way to get subtext, but the OP does read a bit like she is backing off and using religion as the excuse. If religion had been a real issue, it would have come up before. It sounds like **Munch** is willing to make compomises to see if it is in fact about religion. If I were to give any advice it would be to watch for a new excuse or see if she moves the goalposts after attending her chosen church a couple times. If she makes noises about “yes, but you don’t _really_ believe” and keeps pushing back in spite of a willingness to keep an open mind, you can be pretty sure the shiny has worn off the relationship and she is looking for reasons to break up. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/26 "2011-10-12T20:41:39Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Isn’t the whole point of believing in a specific religion is to feel that your religion is “right” and that the other religions are “wrong”? Even if you just generally believe in God w/o organized religion, you still would believe you were “right” compared to an atheist that doesn’t believe in God? Nope. It means that this is how I believe. “This is what I think is right” not “this is what is totally right, contrary to everyone else’s beliefs.” It’s an opinion. At least that’s how _I_ feel. In fact I spend a lot of time thinking “what if I am wrong?” But I’ve never once thought “that other person is wrong.” I also find it laughable that Cat Whisperer thinks that in a religious-atheist relationship the atheist person is always the one who would have to change. As if no atheist person has ever challenged the beliefs of a religious person. People aren’t just awesome or not awesome based on their religious beliefs or lack thereof. Everybody has the ability to be cool. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/27 "2011-10-12T20:52:29Z")
I agree with others who say that there are 2 possibilities here: 1: (Occam’s razor) she doesn’t want to date an atheist. 2: She doesn’t want to date you for some other reason. It might be something shallow or it might hurt your feelings or she might not even be able to articulate what it is. In any case she thinks her safest out is to hang it on religious incompatibility. I mean, think about it. Someone who doesn’t even go to church objects to dating an atheist? Is that really it? In any case, if she’s dragged her friends and family into the decisionmaking process, you’ve already lost because they’re all stupid. Time to move on. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/28 "2011-10-12T21:07:44Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > It doesn’t matter why she doesn’t want to date you, she doesn’t want to date you. She may change her mind through the wisdom acquired with age and life experience, but you’re not going to change it for her. End it. And definitely don’t wait so long to share your religious orientation in the future. This may actually be the first time I’ve ever said this on this board, but. . . I agree with **rachelellogram**. 😃 If someone says they wont have a future with you, then it doesn’t matter why, they just won’t. Move on before this gets too serious. While your religion may be a red flag for her— her willingness to be peer pressured into causing drama in your relationship should be about five red flags to you. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/29 "2011-10-12T21:32:38Z")
I’m surprised this question hasn’t been posed to the OP so I’ll go ahead and ask it: Do you actually want to be with someone for whom it matters, especially given that she’s not even a church-goer? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/30 "2011-10-12T22:05:30Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > One thing that does seem odd - she knew you for over a year, then you dated for \ and the topic of your respective religious views never came up. And then she was “shocked” when you said you were an atheist. True. But to be fair, she was operating under the very solid assumption that I’m Catholic. I went to Notre Dame, am extremely active in my alumni club, most of my friends went to ND, all of them are Catholic, and I come from a Catholic family. Specifically asking about my beliefs just hadn’t come up, since there were so many assumptions to rationally make. > [@stpauler](#): > > So for Munch, I’d have you ask her what are her hang-ups for this. Have her go through them specifically and find out if they are surmountable or not. Yup - that’s the plan. As others have suggested, there’s very possibility the likelihood that she’s breaking it off for some other reason. But knowing her, I really do doubt that. > [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > What it sounds like to me is that she doesn’t want to be a church-goer, she wants to _want_ to be a church-goer. Basically, she wants to be a good person and she has it in her head that religious feeling/church attendance is part of what makes someone a good person. That’s why you being an atheist is causing such cognitive dissonance for her–she’s having trouble reconciling the part of her that knows you’re a good person with the part of her that’s sure you can’t be a good person if you don’t at least pay lip service to religion. This is a really excellent point, CCL - thanks. > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > How close are you to any of these friends? How tough would it be to win some of them over? Maybe ask her if you could have dinner with her and several of her more vocal friends, that might give you a good chance of getting them on Team Munch. I’m really not. I did meet her sisters for the first time a few weeks ago, and they told her, “don’t screw this one up” when they saw each other again. She did make plans to meet with a mutual friend of ours who set us up, someone who has a really good perspective on both of us, so I think I’ll get some idea of how this will resolve itself some time soon. > [@rachelellogram](#): > > OP hasn’t stated what religion his girlfriend is, though. I was trying not to assume. Whoops, sorry. Her current church that she (doesn’t) attend is a Methodist church. > [@Mrs.Cake](#): > > Written posts are not the best way to get subtext, but the OP does read a bit like she is backing off and using religion as the excuse. If religion had been a real issue, it would have come up before. It sounds like **Munch** is willing to make compomises to see if it is in fact about religion. Yup - I’m definitely keeping an eye out for moving goalposts. I do trust her to be bluntly honest though. > [@lindsaybluth](#): > > Do you actually want to be with someone for whom it matters, especially given that she’s not even a church-goer? No, I don’t. But I do want the chance to show her that it _doesn’t_ matter, or at least give her the opportunity to discover that on her own. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/31 "2011-10-12T22:05:38Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > And definitely don’t wait so long to share your religious orientation in the future. I agree with this. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, atheism is hard to advertise, but there are still oppressive anti-atheists out there. Facebook has a “religion” field. I realize not everyone uses Facebook, but there are lots of ways you can subtly make your atheism known. Flying Spaghetti Monster bumper sticker? I actually had a former girlfriend ask me to remove “atheist” from my facebook profile because she was worried about how her friends and family might react to it. I said no. She got over it and told them. We continued dating for some time. Obviously, I don’t know the OP’s girlfriend well and he’s only presented a small amount of information, but someone who is simultaneously so lax about her religion that she doesn’t go to church or make it a big part of her life and so caught up in it that she can’t possibly date someone who doesn’t share her so far uncommented upon beliefs strikes me as either a hypocrite or someone who hasn’t really done a lot of personal reflection on the matter. There are lots of places you can end up on the spectrum of how much religion means to you, but deciding that someone else’s means a lot while your own is basically disregarded isn’t one of the reasonable ones. > [@Cat Whisperer](#): > > The trouble with a non-religious person dating a religious person is that the religious person thinks they are in the right, and the non-religious person is in the wrong, and the non-religious person should be constantly pressured to become more religious, rather than the religious person becoming less religious. I think you’re projecting here. I’m an atheist, and when I date someone religious, I think that I’m right, they’re wrong, and it would be better if they were less religious. I don’t pressure anyone, but that seems like a tactical difference rather than one of kind. I’m not dumb enough to think it’s possible to badger someone out of deeply held beliefs. I take the same line as my Christian friends do: demonstrate that being a good person is consistent with my beliefs, and being opent to talking about it if someone else brings it up. Obviously, to be in that sort of mixed-faith relationship, both parties have to be pretty live-and-let-live, but accepting someone else’s beliefs doesn’t require me to think that they’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/32 "2011-10-12T23:32:20Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Facebook has a “religion” field. I realize not everyone uses Facebook, but there are lots of ways you can subtly make your atheism known. Flying Spaghetti Monster bumper sticker? I mean more like it’s really tough to bring up the “so I’m an atheist” conversation within the first three dates without sounding like a hardcore anti-theist. And although I don’t use facebook myself (so it didn’t occur to me), that’s a good idea. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/33 "2011-10-13T00:23:48Z")
[QUOTE=Munch;14351721No, I don’t. But I do want the chance to show her that it _doesn’t_ matter, or at least give her the opportunity to discover that on her own.[/QUOTE] That very kind of you…but if you really like her (and it sounds like you do) I’d break it off sooner than later just to spare yourself the extra hurt. No need to broaden someone’s horizons just to have it thrown right back in your face. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/34 "2011-10-13T00:52:31Z")
I’ll second Sven’s idea for trying out a UU church. My believing self and my atheist husband (see, it can work) do quite well in our Unitarian congregation, and there are many couples in that congregation that have a similar profile. But I also agree that this is probably deeper than that She finds something disturbing about this. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/35 "2011-10-13T01:44:17Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Yup - I’m definitely keeping an eye out for moving goalposts. I do trust her to be bluntly honest though. Problem is this isn’t always reliable. In my experience, “bluntly honest” only refers to the things _about which the person has conscious self-awareness_. But there is sometimes a deeper subtext that the person herself doesn’t even realise. > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > please do not be completely shocked if six months from now you find out she’s engaged to an atheist. Indeed, I have had a number of relationships in which my partner has said “I would never X” or “I hate Y”, and, as **Bob** has alluded to, found them in the next relationship doing X or tolerating Y. I’ve got a good enough friendship with (some of) my exes to have been able to enquire, in the past, into this seeming hypocrisy, and they’ve always seemed surprised, in an “oh yeah, I didn’t think of that” way. I have had to conclude that, painful as it can be, it’s not actually hypocrisy or even self delusion. How they expressed their tolerances when they were with me was (with one notably unpleasant exception) genuinely, honestly how they articulated their conscious thoughts at the time. Now their life has changed significantly, and their subconscious outlook has shifted too, often in ways of which they are unaware, and the only person to whom it’s an issue is the ex partner. Not just them, by the way - I am sure that I’ve done it too dozens of times without realising it either. None of which is _necessarily_ germane to the OP, but it may have some bearing, either now or in the future. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/36 "2011-10-13T15:14:48Z")
One problem with being so accommodating is that she might convince herself you actually want to convert. If you start attending church and tell her you have no problems raising your kids in her religion she might start thinking that you are practically on the verge of finding jesus and start dating you under the assumption that it’s a done deal. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/37 "2011-10-13T15:35:13Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > This is a really excellent point, CCL - thanks. You’re very welcome. I’d still really, really like an answer to what’s stopping her from going to church if she wants to be a church-goer, though. I think answering that question might be a very edifying conversation for both of you, plus I’m just nosy like that. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352/38 "2011-10-13T21:49:15Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > You’re very welcome. I’d still really, really like an answer to what’s stopping her from going to church if she wants to be a church-goer, though. I think answering that question might be a very edifying conversation for both of you, plus I’m just nosy like that. I intend to ask - she’s out of town this weekend, though. She’s really busy (not a great excuse), but I think the main reason is that she used to attend regularly, but her favorite pastor was sent elsewhere, and the replacement was subpar. I know that when I was active, that was a big factor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-doper-relationship-advice-thread/599352.md?page=1)