# Yet another evil act of the Catholic Church **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338 "2013-01-16T00:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/21 "2013-01-16T04:37:26Z")
A simple test of the supposed facts would be for a colored die to be put in the supposed source of the water to see if it leaks out of the statue in the new color. Just don’t let the color be red as the believers would now be seeing tears of blood. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/22 "2013-01-16T05:52:57Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Oh come on. The church (or at least the current pope) supports the turin shroud and various serious parts of its hierarchy of it support the ketchup blood thing in Naples. There is MASSIVE support for mother theresa who was basically a sadist, and just look at the support for the nun who I had never heard of a week or two ago mentioned on this board who jumped out of a window to stop being raped and then stopped eating (yeah right) - all the time SUFFERING for god. Actually, the pope’s [statement on the shroud](http://www.zenit.org/article-29116?l=english), roundly trumpeted by a media eager to promote sensationalist stories to sell advertising, does not say that he supports a belief in the shroud being genuine. He certainly pushes it as an object to promote belief, but he makes no claim as to its authenticity. You have also garbled the story of Alexandrina da Costa, at least as it pertains to miracles. There is one claim that several bishops made a request to Rome, based on her asking for it. However, the request, (only attested by one person, not a bishop), was supposed to have been based on her spiritual life, not any miracle, and it is supposed to have occurred in 1938, four years before her supposed fast began. So we still do not have any evidence of the hierarchy “promoting” a claim for a miracle. You are free to rail against the church, of course, but your specific claim that the hierarchy is promoting miracle beliefs lacks any evidence, at all. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Please. The foundation of the church is built on the idea of miracles. It is only the fact that the rest of the world isn’t comprised of ignorant peasants that they don’t trumpet every water damaged wall and piece of toast as a miracle. Toto shows us the man behind the curtain and the church doesn’t even have the balls to admit that they foster the attitudes that lead to foolishness and superstition. You really should spend some time looking at the history of your claims. The church hierarchy has been the most resolutely hostile group when it comes to miracles. From the Shroud of Turin, (condemned as a fraud by the local bishop when it was first displayed), through stories about Our Lady of Guadalupe, Bernadette Soubirous and Our Lady of Lourdes, the three kids at Fatima, Portugal, and the current hoopla at Medjugorje, the church hierarchy has always been the last group to accept them as miraculous. If you want to make the case that accepting the idea of miracles promotes the belief in miracles, I can see that point. If you want to claim that the church habitually promotes belief in specific miracles, you are simply wrong. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > A simple test of the supposed facts would be for a colored die to be put in the supposed source of the water to see if it leaks out of the statue in the new color. > > Just don’t let the color be red as the believers would now be seeing tears of blood. This is really not necessary. Sanal already demonstrated the source of the water. Credulous people are not going to believe him and the rest of us accept his explanation. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/23 "2013-01-16T09:44:30Z")
I was born and raised a Catholic, and I still practice it, though deep inside and my wife knows this, I’m an atheist. Short reply to the OP: religion is just religion. It’s a human invention. Boohoo to you if you let it screw up your life. In the same way, science is just science. I’m not that warm to it either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/24 "2013-01-16T09:59:38Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The [WSJ is reporting it as fact.](http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/05/15/religion-journal-christ-statue-in-mumbai-prompts-blasphemy-spat/) The local bishop seems to support the charges. Can you quote the part that says the bishop supports the charges? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/25 "2013-01-16T10:47:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the part that says the bishop supports the charges? > [@](#): > > Although the groups who have taken the cases against Mr. Edamaruku do not represent the bishop, he appeared to praise them for their actions. “We can rejoice that there are some people who have the courage to stand up when the attempts are made to besmirch the name of the Catholic community.” Let the hair-splitting and hand-waving commence. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/26 "2013-01-16T11:20:40Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Let the hair-splitting and hand-waving commence. Nah. That’s just sloppy reporting. We don’t know which groups the bishop is praising for what actions. It’s a quote with no context. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/27 "2013-01-16T12:15:47Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Short reply to the OP: religion is just religion. It’s a human invention. Boohoo to you if you let it screw up your life. In the same way, science is just science. I’m not that warm to it either. :dubious: Science is the world around you. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/28 "2013-01-16T14:41:40Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Basically, a nice (and heroic) man, notable enough to have his own Wikipedia article, called Sanal Edamaruku who is an established Indian skeptic noted that a miraculous weeping cross was caused by a leaking drain. Well, perhaps the leaking drain itself is the miracle. Did you ever think of that? _Did you??_ ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/29 "2013-01-16T14:44:04Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Absolutely. Here is the code:Sounds just like a hate crime. Well, not completely. Make that nothing like a hate crime. > > Let’s compare: > > Hate crime: > Chaining someone by the ankles to your pickup truck and dragging them along until their head is severed, simply because they happen to have a different skin color than you. > > Not a hate crime: > Saying “Let me demonstrate that that weeping cross is the result of a leak.” > > The OP addressed this pretty thoroughly. [California code mentions](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=422.6-422.865)both actions AND threats as hate crime. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yeah, but just between us girls— if it turned out to be 100% true and masterminded by the Pope himself, you still wouldn’t be outraged too much, would you? If the Pope masterminded this stupidity I would publicly denounce his action as thoroughly stupid. He’s the Pope, not God. > [@tomndebb](#): > > ?? > > The hierarchy do not seem to have been involved with this event in any way. > I cannot find a single reference to the local bishop giving any credence to the “miracle.” Sanal has made a claim that “church officials” were promoting the “miracle,” but has not identified them. It appears that the local priest got into a televised argument with Sanal over the subject, but I am not sure why you expect the hierarchy to support a priest making wild claims about a miracle when they have not given any support to the claims, either. > I don’t know how local church politics runs in India, but in most of the world, if the priest was actively promoting the notion of the “miracle,” he would probably be getting his knuckles rapped by his bishop for being a twit. > [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Oh come on. The church (or at least the current pope) supports the turin shroud and various serious parts of its hierarchy of it support the ketchup blood thing in Naples. There is MASSIVE support for mother theresa who was basically a sadist, and just look at the support for the nun who I had never heard of a week or two ago mentioned on this board who jumped out of a window to stop being raped and then stopped eating (yeah right) - all the time SUFFERING for god. > > The latter two examples by the way are one of the ways catholic church is most evil - it fetishises suffering. That’s fairly unusal for a religion. **Does anyone want to deny that emphasising suffering increases suffering?** Church officials all around the world are extremely wary about calling anything like apparitions, weeping statues, or stuff like that a miracle. Priests that promote such event are routinely penalised. I deny that emphasising suffering increases suffering. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Please. The foundation of the church is built on the idea of miracles. It is only the fact that the rest of the world isn’t comprised of ignorant peasants that they don’t trumpet every water damaged wall and piece of toast as a miracle. Toto shows us the man behind the curtain and the church doesn’t even have the balls to admit that they foster the attitudes that lead to foolishness and superstition. That is completely wrong. Church officials are constantly saying that things are NOT are miracle. Every case I remember, at least here in Peru, where an apparition, healing, image, stigmata has appeared on the news, the bishop or priest has always, been extremely cautious and never saying it is a miracle. > [@tagos](#): > > Let the hair-splitting and hand-waving commence. From th WSJ article. “In a letter to The Examiner, a Catholic Newsletter, the bishop said **he did not believe the water to be a miracle.** “But to make that an occasion to hurl false allegations against the Christian community and its leaders is quite another matter,” Bishop Agnelo wrote.” Par for the course for a bishop. The problem is not calling it a leaky pipe not a miracle. There is the, apparently, attack on the community and insults. The law is not one to my liking. The guy wanting to appear as a new Rusdie looks like a publicity stunt. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/30 "2013-01-16T15:21:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nah. That’s just sloppy reporting. We don’t know which groups the bishop is praising for what actions. It’s a quote with no context. Yes we do. The two Catholic Secular Groups that made the complaint. The people ‘standing up’ for his Imaginary Friend. Hair-splitting FAIL. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/31 "2013-01-16T15:30:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you crazy? Have you ever had to listen to anyone speak Finnish for more than a few minutes? Talk about your fingernails on the chalkboard! I was stuck with two elderly Finnish ladies once in a taxi from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. True story!! Uff da! ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/32 "2013-01-16T15:38:26Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Yes we do. The two Catholic Secular Groups that made the complaint. The people ‘standing up’ for his Imaginary Friend. Hair-splitting FAIL. And besides - the Bishop is a lying SOB concerning the ‘no collections’. Yea. Right. Let’s see what a post on the [church’s own forum](http://www.velankannichurch.com/pages/personalexperience/personalexperience.html) says. > [@](#): > > The main shrine had a main decorative arch built by the Portuguese. The high altar was decorated with rare porcelain plates that illustrated scenes from the Bible. They were brought by the Portuguese from China. The altar had Our Lady of Health with a child in her arms. She looked so beautiful wearing a red sari. (Sari is the typical dress worn by the Indian women. It consists of several yards (5 meters or more) of light material draped around the body in a particular fashion). > > A statue of Jesus Christ was by her side. Devotees made their offerings on the left of the main altar. The pilgrims offer the Mother anything from cows, goats, paddy, tea, coffee, cardamom, oil and saris. When Annai (Mother) dons a new sari, given to her by a devotee, small pieces of her old sari are distributed to the devotees. It is called the “Blessed Sari”. We joined a long queue of devotees to offer our Mother the Garlands. It was collected by a volunteer who stood at the side of the altar and was handed over to another person who adorned the mother with the Garland. A second later, another volunteer took away the Garlands so that new ones could be adorned on the Mother. We could move from the main Basilica to the side wing. We had a side view of the Lady of Health with a child in her arms from this wing. After lighting the candles we proceeded to the main altar to kneel down and pray. No words can express the happiness and peace that I felt in the presence of our beloved Mother. > > **Two offering boxes were kept near the altar. One was for money and the other for gold and silver. The devotees make various models in gold and silver and present it to the Mother as a token of gratitude for the numerous blessings she has bestowed upon them.** At the very best he can claim they were not partaking in any added-value fleecing of the gullible, there was no ‘now with added tears’ surcharge but just like all over the world. - where there’s a shrine there’s the Church with its grasping paws stuck out. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/33 "2013-01-16T15:44:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s a peculiar law in India. It’s not that peculiar. Geert Wilders was [prosecuted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Geert_Wilders) for essentially the same thing in the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/34 "2013-01-16T16:25:10Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > [California code mentions](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=422.6-422.865)both actions AND threats as hate crime. I have checked that code for criminalizing speech debunking something alone, and no, it does not treats it as a crime. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The guy wanting to appear as a new Rusdie looks like a publicity stunt. Not really, you need to see what CNN in India reported, and once again, it would be easy for the church leaders to tell their zealots to drop the lawsuit; just like in other scandals, it is worse when the leadership just decides to have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/35 "2013-01-16T16:39:34Z")
Totally agree. India is a fucked up retarded piece of shit country whose people are dumber than republicans for having such a law. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/36 "2013-01-16T16:59:33Z")
For some background, this is the same Indian skeptic who challenged a Tantric mystic who claimed he could kill anyone through mystic to murder him on live television while they were on a talk show. This turned into a multi hour stand off and one of the most watched events in Indian television. [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Tantra_Challenge) Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 In an interview I heard from that time, he started getting worried when the mystic had a knife brought in “to help him focus”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/37 "2013-01-16T17:01:34Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And besides - the Bishop is a lying SOB concerning the ‘no collections’. Yea. Right. Let’s see what a post on the [church’s own forum](http://www.velankannichurch.com/pages/personalexperience/personalexperience.html) says. That would have been a magnificent gotcha, (or at least a tepid are-you-sure?), if you had not gotten your churches mixed up. Your link is to a church on the Bay of Bengal on the East coast that has been having reports of miraculous healings for around 400 years, since a shipload of Portuguese washed ashore there after a cyclone. Places with long histories of (alleged) miracles tend to become shrines where people choose to donate money. The church discussed on this thread is in a suburb of Mumbai/Bombay on the West coast of India that happens to be dedicated with the same name. They are a bit over 700 miles apart. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/38 "2013-01-16T17:20:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are free to rail against the church, of course, but your specific claim that the hierarchy is promoting miracle beliefs lacks any evidence, at all. > > You really should spend some time looking at the history of your claims. The church hierarchy has been the most resolutely hostile group when it comes to miracles. From the Shroud of Turin, (condemned as a fraud by the local bishop when it was first displayed), through stories about Our Lady of Guadalupe, Bernadette Soubirous and Our Lady of Lourdes, the three kids at Fatima, Portugal, and the current hoopla at Medjugorje, the church hierarchy has always been the last group to accept them as miraculous. Except for, maybe, those of us who don’t accept them as miraculous. I find it difficult to believe that a church that has miracle beliefs is somehow not promoting miracle beliefs by having miracle beliefs. The way not to promote miracle beliefs is not to have them. Otherwise, you’re just someone on a fad diet claiming that you’re a skeptic because you don’t believe in all fad diets. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/39 "2013-01-16T17:25:36Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Except for, maybe, those of us who don’t accept them as miraculous. If you do not accept a miracle, you cannot be the last one to have accepted it. 😛 Among those who do tend to believe in miracles, the church hierarchy has a long tradition of being the last to accept them. Better? ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338/40 "2013-01-16T17:31:40Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > A simple test of the supposed facts would be for a colored die to be put in the supposed source of the water to see if it leaks out of the statue in the new color. > > Just don’t let the color be red as the believers would now be seeing tears of blood. You’re just aching for a one-way ticket to Finland, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-evil-act-of-the-catholic-church/647338.md?page=3)