# Yet Another Healthcare Debate...Sorry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276 "2009-07-08T00:19:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/81 "2009-07-11T01:17:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > _: **Shodan** preens like the worst peacock you ever met:_ > > I suggest you start a dozen threads, all with verbiage like this addressed to anyone you want to talk with. I can almost guarantee you will be snowed under with responses from reasoned and articulate posters like **Gruman** and **Voyager** and **athelas** and **Sam Stone**. > > All seriousness aside, you often get what you deserve. The tone of your posts is entirely reasonable and articulate, and set (IMO) the right atmosphere for rational discussion. If everyone conducted threads like this, GD would be filled to the brim with intelligent, respectful, enlightening debate. > > So cut it out. > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - 😉 Thank you so much for your kind words. I have avoided jumping in for all these years because of feeling inadequate and intimidated, so your encouragement means mountains to me. Full disclosure - I adore lots of posters, independent of political affiliation. The passion of **Dio** and **Der Trihs** (if more Washington Democrats had their kind of courage, at least change would happen faster). The humor of **Elucidator** and **Sampiro**. The compassion and acceptance of **Polycarp**. The gentle, considered reasoning of **Nzinga, Seated** and **sarafeena**. I try to model **DianaG** , **Shot from Guns** , and \*\*AuntBeast \*\*IRL (and I wish I had an Aunt Beast). There is something beneficially mind-blowing about reading the posts of \*\*KGS \*\*and **kanicbird**. Reading when **Really Not All That Bright** defends women from nasty, sexual humor, \*\*PRR \*\*defends children against physical violence in the name of “discipline”, or that most excellent and heart-warming post, I forget the name of the poster who wrote it, when he talked about defending his daughter (the “I’m God’s Hammer” one). I’ve been reading these boards for a long time (since \*\*Liberal \*\*was **Libertarian** ), and I can honestly say that my ignorance has been fought in most entertaining and enlightening ways. Everybody’s got a piece of the truth. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/82 "2009-07-11T16:02:58Z")
House Democrats agreed Friday to [raise taxes](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/11/AR2009071100482.html?wprss=rss_politics) by about $550 billion to pay for their sweeping expansion of the nation’s health care system. The huge tax increase will only pay for about half the cost of the Democrats’ health spending plans, and I am skeptical that it will even raise as much as the Dems are claiming. The not-at-all right-wing Lane [notes](http://crookedtimber.org/2009/04/18/reducing-inequality-how-to-pay-for-it/): > [@](#): > > Moderate or high levels of tax revenue can’t come solely from higher rates or new taxes on the rich; the math simply doesn’t work. To significantly increase spending on transfers and/or services, President Obama and/or his successors will need to increase taxes on the middle class. One way to do this would be via a federal consumption tax, such as a value-added tax (VAT). And sure enough, the House Dems are already [looking](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/health/policy/16obama.html?_r=1&hp)at different ways to levy taxes on the middle to pay for their programs: > [@](#): > > ``` > Democrats on three House panels continue to meet privately to seek consensus on a single plan. Democrats on the House Ways and Means Committee said they were trying to decide whether to finance coverage of the uninsured with one broad-based tax, like the value-added tax, or a combination of smaller taxes. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/83 "2009-07-11T16:20:42Z")
The repubs said over and over that Medicare and Medicade spending would bankrupt the country in the future. The dems are tackling the issue. Do you honestly believe we should do nothing? Setting up the system will cost money. Then it will generate better coverage and financial savings. Then of course 50 million uncovered in America is a disgrace. Sorry ,but something has to be done. The medical and pharm lobbyists are doing their best to destroy the efforts. We all know the rich and powerful have the best interests of the country at heart. For example ,the banking and financial industry. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/84 "2009-07-11T21:48:53Z")
> [@Maia\_s\_Well](#): > > This illustrates my belief that not every company is dishonest in every transaction. I suspect that the actual incidences of people being deceived or taken advantage of represent a very small, even miniscule percentage of customers (although I can’t begin to guess what that percentage might be). With all the trouble that I’ve gone through with my claims being routinely denied, my husband, covered by the same company, has had nary a problem. Broke his leg recently, paid the $250 copay when he got to the ER, and everything after was handled efficiently and without problems. > > I think anecdotal evidence does have some small value; it reminds us that very little is all black and white. It’s possible your issue is that you’re too expensive and they want to get rid of you, or that you might just be unlucky. My father-in-law had to work three years to get a pap smear taken off his bill. I’m just saying that the big companies don’t have a business model of taking money and denying lots of claims. My job is partly to look at field failures of our computers. Some months it seems nothing we have out there is any damn good - which is not what the statistics say. You have to distinguish a small number of problems which need to be fixed from a massive quality meltdown - which you get but some others don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/85 "2009-07-11T21:52:01Z")
> [@Maia\_s\_Well](#): > > But I never forget that people like you have given more taken less and people like me have given less (at least financially) and taken more. And to be honest, I can’t blame anyone in the first group for being a little pissed off about it. ☹ I’d only give them a pass if they think it is okay for everyone else to get pissed off when the time comes that they get sick and use “more than their share.” If they have a way of ensuring that someone never gets sick and uses benefits, I wish they’d tell us. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/86 "2009-07-12T02:51:32Z")
What is my share. I had 1 hernia operation in 40 years of coverage.Any regular doctors visits, I paid for. I never had free doctor visits. They were never covered. Ear infections and flus cost me cash. I don’t feel cheated ,I would rather be healthy. When I had the hernia ,my insurance was supposed to pay a percetage of my salary. In case of an injury , we would get the check with no waiting period. The insurance company declared my hernia an illness. Therefore I had to wait 3 weeks for coverage. I asked them to show the virus or germ that caused the hernia. They just shut down communication and refused to pay. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/87 "2009-07-12T02:57:55Z")
Excuse me the definition was a disease. A hernia was declared a disease. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/88 "2009-07-12T05:03:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’d only give them a pass if they think it is okay for everyone else to get pissed off when the time comes that they get sick and use “more than their share.” If they have a way of ensuring that someone never gets sick and uses benefits, I wish they’d tell us. Are you done misrepresenting my argument yet? I only have a problem with your support for a self-defeating business model because people want to use force to keep it functioning. If you want to subsidise high-risk customers by making a bigger profit on low-risk customers you’ll get no argument from me, until you have driven away all your low-risk customers and want to use the government to get them back. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/89 "2009-07-12T12:52:54Z")
[Bill Moyers Journal . Transcripts | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/transcript2.html) Our system is a disgrace.Even Health Care insiders are ashamed of what they have foisted on Americans. They know how to play the PR game. And some people are dumb enough to swallow everything they sell. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/90 "2009-07-13T02:31:20Z")
[Consortiumnews.com](http://consortiumnews.com/2009/071109a.html) This is Moyers explaining why the best options for the people will be taken off the table. The special access the health company lobbyists have with the Senators and Congressmen is insidious. They also have special access to the media big wigs. That is why you will not get health care fixed. The media will not tell you what is going on and the pols need the money to keep their seats. The system does not work for the people. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/91 "2009-07-13T02:59:05Z")
[We Must Stop the Rampant Fraud in the Health Care Industry | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/we-must-stop-the-rampant_b_222510.html) Here is Senator Sanders explaining how much fraud is perpetrated on the tax payers by health corporations, drug companies etc. They have fleeced the tax payers for decades and want to continue.Dishonesty is their policy. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/92 "2009-07-13T03:54:39Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Fascinating article (as promised, I did read it). I had not realized from Chief Pedant’s posting that this was focused on a specific town and includes a larger percentage of the population in general than we’d expect to see most other places. > > The article’s point that such trends are unsustainable is a good one. But who can force the medical culture to behave more like Grand Junction CO, than McAllen TX? > > I’ve seen doctors practicing both ways - heck, even the _same_ doctor! My doctor has never prescribed anything more invasive for me than a chest X-ray (a couple of times during an asthma flareup), while my husband wound up with a stress test, a repeat stress test with radioisotopes, and a gall-bladder ultrasound… for what turned out to be benign overexertion-based discomfort. I heard a discussion about this on NOR. They mentioned several large hospitals in contrast to McAllen that did a great job of controlling costs and offering quality health care so there are good models out there. One big problem in McAllen was that the doctors all began to see it as a for profit business and began becoming owners of other health related services. So, you visit the doctor and he orders a test or two or three. Turns out he owns the company preforming the tests as well. So, the focus was on more health care because it equaled more profit for the doctors, at the tax payers expense. Can we diminish that problem by outlawing doctors owning other health related services as a conflict of interest? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/93 "2009-07-13T05:23:52Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Are you done misrepresenting my argument yet? I only have a problem with your support for a self-defeating business model because people want to use force to keep it functioning. If you want to subsidise high-risk customers by making a bigger profit on low-risk customers you’ll get no argument from me, until you have driven away all your low-risk customers and want to use the government to get them back. There are two types of high risk customers - those with a choice and those without a choice. I’m all for charging smokers more, and maybe even the obese. Those are high risk customers with a certain amount of choice. On the other hand, we don’t have much choice about getting old. Since young people will get old, as a rule, I have no problem forcing them to subsidize their future care. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/94 "2009-07-13T06:26:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Consortiumnews.com](http://consortiumnews.com/2009/071109a.html) This is Moyers explaining why the best options for the people will be taken off the table. The special access the health company lobbyists have with the Senators and Congressmen is insidious. They also have special access to the media big wigs. That is why you will not get health care fixed. The media will not tell you what is going on and the pols need the money to keep their seats. The system does not work for the people. This dismays me also, and is the main reason why I think any plan that is good for the general public will be hobbled before it even joins the race. I fear there’s simply too much money at stake for the major insurers to just bow out of the main game. It’s not too difficult to dispense “poison pill” PR to Joe the plummer types by making fatuous claims. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/95 "2009-07-13T06:28:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There are two types of high risk customers - those with a choice and those without a choice. I’m all for charging smokers more, and maybe even the obese. Those are high risk customers with a certain amount of choice. On the other hand, we don’t have much choice about getting old. Since young people will get old, as a rule, I have no problem forcing them to subsidize their future care. I’d add professional and recreational sports players too. High risk, voluntary behavior. Also, people who chose to become pregnant. And people who chose high stress professions. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/96 "2009-07-13T11:49:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Then why do people do business with them? If their product (increased predictability of expenses) is not worth the price (higher average expenditure), willingly buying their product means deliberately making yourself worse off. Either other people disagree with you, or their stupidity is their own problem. Because you don’t learn that your company won’t cover you until you actually need coverage. Unless there’s some easy way to research insurance companies and see how many claims they deny. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/97 "2009-07-13T23:37:57Z")
Seems like every interest group, from insurers to unions, is going to try to get their cut of whatever the government grinds out. From the [NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/health/policy/08health.html?_r=1&hp): > [@](#): > > The deal with doctors could come at a steep price: a $250 billion fix to a 12-year-old provision in federal law intended to limit the growth of Medicare reimbursements. The American Medical Association and other doctors’ groups have sought to change or repeal the provision, and they are likely to try to extract that as their price for boarding the Obama train, people tracking the negotiations said. > > Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private-sector employer, agreed recently to support requiring all big companies to insure their workers. In exchange, Wal-Mart said it wanted a guarantee that the bill would not “create barriers to hiring entry-level employees” — in effect, code words to insist that lawmakers abandon the idea of requiring employers to pay part of the cost for workers covered by Medicaid, the government insurance plan for the poor. > > “It’s kind of a give-and-take, quid pro quo kind of environment,” said Tom Daschle, President Obama’s first choice for health secretary, who remains in touch with the White House on health care issues. “I think that the stakeholders wouldn’t do this if they didn’t think there was something in it for them.” > > …Over the past year, Mr. Baucus, Democrat of Montana, has strong-armed industry groups, warning them not to publicly criticize the process if they want to stay in negotiations. > > Mr. Baucus, in turn, has said little about his talks with industry players. On Tuesday, he said only that he was “heartened” by how many groups were supporting the health care overhaul. This of course illustrates another difficulty in having government healthcare: not only is it difficult to even have a theoretical model that works, once your nice shiny model gets into the real world of government, every interest group is going to have its own agenda, and if you want their support, they all have their price. Put it another way. If you have public opinion strongly on your side, than you can just power through and tell the special interests where to stick it. If, like Obama, you’re going to push through a controversial bill, where you know you’re going to have a lot of opponents, then you are going to make lots of deals to get lobbyists on your side and bastardize your ideal in the process. This happened to Waxman-Markey, and from the looks of it, healthcare is going to get the [public choice treatment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice) even worse. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/98 "2009-07-14T00:58:44Z")
Wal-Mart the world biggest employer and the greatest profit maker on the globe does not want health care. What a surprise. They have taxpayers paying for it now. Why do they want to have to cover employees? Their lobbyists and political power will be stomping on any pol that wants to fix the system. They are making tons just like it is. They have no interest in the welfare of those who work for them. They do not care. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/99 "2009-07-14T01:19:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Wal-Mart the world biggest employer and the greatest profit maker on the globe does not want health care. [They don’t](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31667110/)? > [@](#): > > Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private employer, on Tuesday endorsed the idea of requiring large companies to offer health insurance to their workers. The proposal is central to Obama’s hopes of covering the nation’s nearly 50 million uninsured and is disliked by some business groups. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276/100 "2009-07-14T03:29:23Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I’m not sure government has much of a chance to reduce healthcare costs in the current environment simply by becoming an alternate payor (or even the only payor). I would argue that the best chance of reducing costs includes a single payor system. Medicare insures the most expensive patients in our system and a lot of that has to do with the compensation system but even more of it has to do with how we spend our money. The average person in America spends about half their lifetime health care dollars in the last few months of their life when they are in and out of the ICU trying to summon the miracles of modern medicine to extend life by another week, another day, another few hours. I don’t know how we get there but at some point we have to come to terms with the fact that people have to die. You can pay your own way if you want but when we determine what the government pays for I think that we have to ration health care a lot more than we do now even in the medicare system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-healthcare-debate-sorry/502276.md?page=6)