# Yet Another Movie That Might Change Your Life ... or At Least Make You Think **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2001, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069 "2001-03-07T06:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/101 "2001-03-15T07:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. If not, then, pray tell, what exactly are your qualifications for your current mission? C’mon gang, give me a break. I don’t know _anybody’s_ qualifications on the board. For myself, I’m not qualified to comment on either Christianity or SDI, but that doesn’t stop me from jabbering on about both. FoG’s been inundated with about 15,000 requests in this thread (not surprising, we’re talking about a billboard-sized target.) 😉 While there’s nothing wrong with pointing out gaping holes in facts and logic, I humbly request that we at least veil the personal attacks a little. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/102 "2001-03-15T08:47:20Z")
**Ben** … I am mentally kicking myself, because Ben was _marginally_ polite in this last post. You did it on purpose didn’t ya? 😉 Okay, I will answer your questions: > [@](#): > > Some time ago you delivered a false prophecy which you attributed to God. I pointed to the relevant Scripture which said that your prophecy came from Satan. Do you admit that your prophecy came from Satan? I asked you about this at the tail end of another thread (either the original movie one or the other one about Christians getting persecuted), but you must have missed it. First, your assumption is incorrect. I did not deliver a “false prophesy”, nor did I attribute it to God. For those who don’t know what he means, last summer when I was here I thought I might have heard a word from the Lord as an encouragment to someone, but I was incorrect. I had thought it was God, but I was obviously wrong. Why do you say I ‘attributed it to God’? It became pretty obvious it wasn’t God, and I said so! It is for this reason (the fact that we humans can ‘miss God’ easily) that I never _authoritatively_ say “God said …”. If I think God wants to speak through me, I am always quite tentative. I usually say something like, “This is what I think the Lord is saying” or “I believe God wants to encourage you with …”. Most if not all of my friends would prophesy in the same way. My biggest mistake, as I said at the time, was I did it ‘out of context’ of good Biblical teaching. Prophesy always has to be surrounded with sound Biblical teaching so that it’s kept in perspective. But more on that another time … Second, as for you ‘pointing out the relevant scripture that ‘proves’ it came from satan’, I don’t recall you saying this, but feel free to bring it up again. At any rate, you are inaccurate to presume that. It could easily just be _me_, not God or satan. In fact, in all the times I’ve prophesied, I can say honestly that any time I’ve missed it has been me and not satan. There’s an easy yardstick to use: satan’s goal is always to steal, kill, and destroy. If it has a _NEGATIVE_ effect on someone, you might have been used by the enemy. Virtually every _miss_ I’ve ever seen, however, has simply been _neutral_ … ie, no positive or negative effect. Most words that are from the Lord bring tremendous encouragement and relief and challenge, like the Bible says they should. Now, I do recall one time in college giving one word of _counsel_ that, while _true_, was given at a point that was not God’s _timing_ … and I think the enemy _did_ use me in that situation. Not a pleasant thought. But I can’t recall a time I prophesied that I felt that the enemy was somehow using me. Second question: > [@](#): > > You have been asked more than once whether Pat Robertson is a real Christian, and whether you support his behavior. Is he? Do you? ??? Uhhh … honestly this entertains me. I don’t recall this being a burning question anywhere. I certainly believe he’s a real Christian! I respect him tremendously, although I don’t 100% agree with everything he does (but then, who can you agree 100% with). What ‘behavior’ are you talking about? > [@](#): > > Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen _any_ response from you on either of these questions, ever. As I mentioned, I did partly respond to the so-called ‘false prophesy’ one at the tail end of another thread, but I think it just got missed. > [@](#): > > The more you ignore them, the more you look like you’re just being weaselly and dishonest. I was ignoring the first one (I don’t even recall seeing the 2nd one) because of the tone in which it was asked. This wasn’t a _huge_ improvement but I figured I’d go ahead and help you get it out of your system ;). Hope it helped. **vanilla** said: > [@](#): > > I myself have never seen a "christian " movie. If you ever see only one, I hope you get to see “The Hiding Place” from the mid-70s. It’s a true story of some Jews who escaped the Holocaust, and two women who didn’t and had to live through it and keep their faith intact. **tracer** said: > [@](#): > > I’ve also seen every episode of Davey and Goliath – I was a kid in the pre-cable-TV era, and there was nothing else on TV on Sunday mornings except televangelists. I figured, hey, if I had to get preached to, I much preferred getting preached to by a claymation kid and his talking dog than a real-life preacher with a Southern accent so thick he pronounced “scriptures” as though it had 4 syllables. LOL! Have you ever seen Veggie Tales? Some friends introduced me to it recently. It’s for kids but adults can enjoy them too. They’re hilarious! Then there’s Focus on the Family’s radio drama Adventures in Odyssey too, which is excellent. **Pariah** gave an interesting summation of _Jesus of Montreal_. It sounds interesting! Thanks for the summary. As for your comments about hiring good actors, I couldn’t agree more … but budgets have to get a lot bigger before that can happen. Believe me, on the LB Message Board we had Harrison Ford as Rayford Steele, etc. But no Christian film studio has that kind of money right now. Maybe someday… **andros** said: > [@](#): > > Nope, nope, nope. Sorry, Charlie, but there really are some objective criteria for determining the quality of a film. Being Christian does not automatically make it good. I couldn’t agree more. In fact, I will openly admit that the vast majority of Christian-made films are lacking in every way imaginable. But hopefully, the tide is turning, much like it did for CCM in the late 70s and early 80s. I am hoping that Christian moviemaking will finally become high quality in this decade. **Monty** wants to play 20 questions, or at least 8 in this case, so here we go: > [@](#): > > 1. Have you studied Theology? Not probably in the way you are thinking of it. I never went to seminary if that’s what you mean. I’ve studied Theology during my entire Christian walk, but just through personal Bible study, good teachings and books, etc. > [@](#): > > 1. If so, where? > > 2. If so, and you named where, was that place accredited? > > 3. If so, by whom accredited? All moot points due to my answer in #1 ;). The closest thing, I suppose, to what you are talking about was a 10 week training school I went to in the summer of 1990 called “Intensive Christian Training”. It was _not_, however, a theology school. The entire focus of the 10 weeks of intensive study was how to develop, maintain, and strengthen a healthy relationship with God. > [@](#): > > 1. To which denomination do you belong? A really popular denomination: “Non” :D. Seriously, I belong to Liberty Church, which is a nondenominational Chrismatic church. Liberty is part of Liberty Fellowship, which basically provides the pastors of the various churches with accountability on moral, money, and doctrine issues, as well as assistance and oversight when needed. Most non denominational Charismatic churches belong to one of several similar fellowships. A very popular one is Vineyard Fellowship which has churches all across the country. > [@](#): > > 1. Does that denomination have ministers, priests, or preachers? _Pastors_, as well as Prophets, Evangelists, Apostles, Elders, Deacons, etc. > [@](#): > > 1. If so, are you officially one of those ministers, priests, or preachers? Nope, I’ve never been in full-time ministry. > [@](#): > > 1. If not, then, pray tell, what exactly are your qualifications for your current mission? I have the only qualification necessary: a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! I find this last question interesting. There is a huge misconception out there that pastors and church leaders are the ones who should do the _real_ work, the _real_ spiritual stuff. This is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches, even though many people (including many Christians) believe it. The Bible teaches that it is the church’s job to _TRAIN_ all the rest of us to go out and share God’s truth with the world! It’s not only not confined to full time ministers, it’s not even intended to _primarily_ be full time ministers! It’s all us average Joe’s who have the real mission in life! Thanks for the interesting questions :). **Philosophocles** said: > [@](#): > > The problem with obsessing about the “end times” is that such a mindset lends itself to what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called “cheap grace”…because hey, God’s gonna pluck us out of this messy world when the evil gets just a bit too intense…that’s a comforting thought, but it’s kind of a shallow theology. Ah, you’ve struck a nerve. This is _the_ very reason why I’ve never 100% bought the pre-trib rapture theory. Well, that along with the fact that there are good scriptural arguments for both. **flowbark** said: > [@](#): > > While there’s nothing wrong with pointing out gaping holes in facts and logic, I humbly request that we at least veil the personal attacks a little. Thanks for the support :). As I’ve said at times, I have no problem with people strongly disagreeing with me, but lets keep the debate civil at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![Pariah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/41988e/32.png) [@Pariah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pariah)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/103 "2001-03-15T09:01:05Z")
**Monty** – You realize, of course, that most of your questions are addressed in the _authority Christ gives to his disciples_, found in the Gospels. I understand, however, that ‘The Bible’ as a source for accrediting the seeming layman is not easily accepted here. However, if you are willing, it might behoove the curious non-believer to observe the passages/assertations revealed in the texts provided within the body of the Bible to better understand the imperative to ‘share one’s faith’, which in many circumstances include ‘teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness’–and these tenets granted by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the ‘counselor who will lead [the believer] into all truth.’ …if you’re genuinely interested in why these Christians, regardless of their mores in education or social graces, feel they have the blessing of God to proclaim the Gospel to even the most violent opposition. I have a feeling you already know why the _Christian_ does so, and are merely looking for clarification from **Friend of God** for the same, due to the seemingly haphazard style in which he’s presented himself. Lemme know if I’m way off, here. _Take care._ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/104 "2001-03-15T14:42:52Z")
Friend, That Does sound like a good movie. I usually only want to see comedies; I guess its hard to find a “christina” comedy! But I’ve been watchin Veggie Tales for years, love it! Larry says hi!😉 I used to belong to a Foursquare church that was part of Vineyard. But, truly, I think its up to God about Pat Robertson; I’ve seen some pretty hateful and stupid things he’s said(like all feminists are lesbian witches). ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/105 "2001-03-15T14:44:42Z")
Oops. Christina comedy? I guess that would be Miss Aguilera as Mary, mother of Jesus… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/106 "2001-03-15T16:01:49Z")
(Personal aside) **Friend** , are you in Birmingham or Fairhope? No need to answer if you’d prefer otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/107 "2001-03-15T17:11:21Z")
**andros** asked: > [@](#): > > Friend, are you in Birmingham or Fairhope? Bham, Al. Are you from Alabama too? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/108 "2001-03-15T17:17:44Z")
FriendofGod wrote: > [@](#): > > Have you ever seen Veggie Tales? No. I hate vegetables. ('s truth!) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/109 "2001-03-15T17:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you from Alabama too? Nope, North Carolina. But I have a friend who might be moving to Bham soon. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/110 "2001-03-15T20:31:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > Actually, if you **really** wanted to save as many souls from an eternity in Hell as possible, your best bet would be to gather up all those Christians who are having a Crisis of Faith and are thus in danger of abandoning Christianity, encourage them to make one more great big personal “push” of belief in Christ, just for a few minutes – anyone can convince themselves to be a True Believer if they don’t have to sustain it for long – and then shoot them all in the head while they’re experiencing that short moment of True Belief. Instant salvation by the roomful. _ **DON’T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!** _ ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/111 "2001-03-15T20:35:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pariah \* > **Film about a bunch of actors hired by a church to produce Easter’s ‘Passion Play’–the play depicting the life of Christ, often focusing on the crucifixion and ressurection.** Reminds me of the movie _And God Spoke_ where these producers are trying to make a film of the entire Bible on a shoestring budget. Has some funny bits, like where the guy (I’ll call him Dave) who is playing Jesus is this serious method actor, and the director is trying to get his attention: Director: Hey, Dave, can you come over here a minute. (no response) Director: Dave! Come here! (nothing) Director: Dave!! Dammit. _ **DAVE** _!! (Dave contiues ignoring him.) Director (throwing up his hands) Jesus! Dave: Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/112 "2001-03-16T05:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > > **Monty** wants to play 20 questions, or at least 8 in this case, so here we go: Nope. Just eight. BTW, thanks for actually keeping the answers, such as they are, in the same thread. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. Have you studied Theology? > > Not probably in the way you are thinking of it. I never went to seminary if that’s what you mean. I’ve studied Theology during my entire Christian walk, but just through personal Bible study, good teachings and books, etc. I’ll take that as a “No.” As it is, I’m willing to bet real money that you have not studied Theology, but rather have studied your faith’s catechism. They are not the same thing. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. If so, where? > > > > 2. If so, and you named where, was that place accredited? > > > > 3. If so, by whom accredited? > > All moot points due to my answer in #1 ;). The closest thing, I suppose, to what you are talking about was a 10 week training school I went to in the summer of 1990 called “Intensive Christian Training”. It was _not_, however, a theology school. The entire focus of the 10 weeks of intensive study was how to develop, maintain, and strengthen a healthy relationship with God. Then it doesn’t have any bearing on the Theology question, right? I’d say that, given your description in the last sentence, it has everything to do with being part of your faith’s catechism. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. To which denomination do you belong? > > A really popular denomination: “Non” :D. Seriously, I belong to Liberty Church, which is a nondenominational Chrismatic church. Liberty is part of Liberty Fellowship, which basically provides the pastors of the various churches with accountability on moral, money, and doctrine issues, as well as assistance and oversight when needed. Most non denominational Charismatic churches belong to one of several similar fellowships. A very popular one is Vineyard Fellowship which has churches all across the country. Charismatic non-denominational? That sounds a lot like an Assemblies of God or other Pentacostal outfit, but I’ll take the time and effort to research it. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. Does that denomination have ministers, priests, or preachers? > > _Pastors_, as well as Prophets, Evangelists, Apostles, Elders, Deacons, etc. If Ben’s assertion is correct, and I’ve no reason to doubt him so far, I sure hope they do a better job of it than he says you did. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. If so, are you officially one of those ministers, priests, or preachers? > > Nope, I’ve never been in full-time ministry. So your outfit feels that there are certain ecclesiastical offices which require certain qualifications before embarking on their missions, whatever those missions are? And you’re not one of them? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. If not, then, pray tell, what exactly are your qualifications for your current mission? > > I have the only qualification necessary: a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! Are you sure it’s Jesus? After all, again assuming Ben was correct {and you partially affirmed his assertion above, btw}, you’ve been mistaken on that, for at least a little while. > [@](#): > > I find this last question interesting. There is a huge misconception out there that pastors and church leaders are the ones who should do the _real_ work, the _real_ spiritual stuff. Actually, my outfit also feels everyone should do “the real spiritual stuff,” as do many other outfits. But we certainly don’t condone misinformation. > [@](#): > > This is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches, even though many people (including many Christians) believe it. The Bible teaches that it is the church’s job to _TRAIN_ all the rest of us to go out and share God’s truth with the world! You realize that being an example is a good start. Please start being good. {Hey, I couldn’t pass up that one!} > [@](#): > > It’s not only not confined to full time ministers, it’s not even intended to _primarily_ be full time ministers! It’s all us average Joe’s who have the real mission in life! Well, my outfit doesn’t pay their priesthood members. I guess that makes all of us “average Joes” there. > [@](#): > > Thanks for the interesting questions :). No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/113 "2001-03-16T05:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > \*\ ***Ben** … I am mentally kicking myself, because Ben was _marginally_ polite in this last post. You did it on purpose didn’t ya? 😉 \*\* “Marginally” polite? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I asked you about this at the tail end of another thread (either the original movie one or the other one about Christians getting persecuted), but you must have missed it. \*\* Cite, please? > [@](#): > > \*\* > First, your assumption is incorrect. I did not deliver a “false prophesy”, nor did I attribute it to God. For those who don’t know what he means, last summer when I was here I thought I might have heard a word from the Lord as an encouragment to someone, but I was incorrect. I had thought it was God, but I was obviously wrong. Why do you say I ‘attributed it to God’? It became pretty obvious it wasn’t God, and I said so! \*\* Yes, you did deliver a false prophesy. You delivered a prophesy, and it was false. You admitted it was a prophesy. You admitted it was false. Why do you not admit it was a false prophesy? By your own admission, you attributed it to God. “I had thought it was God, but I was obviously wrong.” You may have retracted your error- but you nonetheless attributed it to God. Here are the relevant parts of the conversation, from this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=33749&pagenumber=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=33749&pagenumber=1) Let me point out that I am bolding parts from the message I am replying to, and not bolding old quotes. Here is FoG’s original “prophecy.” > [@](#): > > Wow! Well, forgive me. As I was preparing to move on, I think God gave me something for you. Is there something going on at your job that is causing great confusion, matt? That is what I am sensing. Please correct me if I’m wrong. _If_ what I’m sensing is indeed correct, God has a word of encouragment for you. pldennison responded rather negatively to this, to say the least, and FoG replied: > [@](#): > > pl, please read this sentence very carefully: THIS IS NOT A CHILDISH LITTLE GAME. > > Of _all_ the responses I imagined you might give, this one takes the cake. To be honest, this reaction wasn’t even in my list of possibilities. Pardon me for asking, but _what_ are you smoking? > > Do you realize I wrestled with God for over an hour before hitting “Submit Reply”? Do you realize I argued _against_ my putting that in my message? I said to God, “It’s one thing when Christians are prophesying over each other and have a lot of mercy if you ‘miss it’ partly. God, this bunch will _brutalize_ me if I ‘miss it’ even one inch. Are you _sure_ you want me to do this?” > > And _WHERE_ do you get off being so cocky and sure that _everyone_ is going through a confusing issue at work?? I can say for certain that _I_ am not. You don’t know how many times during that hour I said to God, “You realize he might say ‘Hey, work is going just fine. Looks like you blew it.’” > > I was even going to wimp out and water it down to just ‘confusion’, but I felt that I needed to put ‘great’ confusion to be more specific. > > And where do you get off being so certain that I was just _straining so hard_ to try to “legitimize my position”? Look, you asked for something, I didn’t want to do it because of the context in which it was asked (aka it seemed like you were asking for a ‘magic show’), and as I started to move on to the next topic, God seemed to intervene and give me something for you. I typed it. > > ## Since you obviously don’t like it, _GET OVER IT_. **If you really don’t want to be encouraged by the Lord, you could not have given Him a more forceful and passionate slap in the face.** _emphasis mine- Ben)_ Now I know why this exchange took place between Jesus and the Pharisees in the Bible: quote: > > ## Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah …’" (Mt 12:38-39a) > > And you _wonder_ why God doesn’t do more to prove Himself to you. I have _never_ in 34 years heard someone react so contemptuously to a word from the Lord. > > If you want to believe that what I said was a “lucky guess” or something, fine, that’s your right. But don’t presume that you know so certainly what was happening on this end of the keyboard. Here is matt’s reply: > [@](#): > > I look forward to your “word” from God. I’m afraid your last bit of information was wrong- I don’t HAVE a job. FoG’s response to pldennison, after finding out that he got it wrong: > [@](#): > > I still will stand by my statement that your attitude toward someone getting a word from the Lord seems pretty contemptuous, whether it turned out to be correct or not (you didn’t _know_ I had ‘missed it’ last night). That’s right, folks- even if FoG gets it wrong, it’s a “slap in the face” to God for criticising FoG for making false prophecies. FoG, you delivered a false prophecy. Think of it this way: _pldennison has more power of discernment than you do._ He knew the prophecy did not come from God, and you- the false prophet in question- did not. I think that if God exists, pldennison was way, way more tuned in to him than you were, and you should have a little more respect for God’s choice of friends. FoG also states: > [@](#): > > As for how and why I missed it with Matt … well, that’s the good ole’ risk you take with prophesy. Sometimes you just flat out miss it and fall on your face. Truthfully, I’m surprisingly glad I took the risk anyway. Sometimes you’ve just gotta jump out there and do it. I’ve never attempted to prophesy to someone that wasn’t a believer before and I struck out the first time! But honestly, I feel kind of glad to have at least tried. Uh, no, FoG, sometimes you don’t “flat out miss it.” Isaiah didn’t “flat out miss it,” ever, because unlike you, he’s a real prophet. Real prophets do not miss. Ever. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It is for this reason (the fact that we humans can ‘miss God’ easily) that I never _authoritatively_ say “God said …”. If I think God wants to speak through me, I am always quite tentative. \*\* You mean like Isaiah? “Uh, guys- I think God has a little something for you. Is a Messiah going to come, or something? That’s the vibes I’m getting.” Face it, FoG: if there’s an ounce of truth to your religion, then God can speak through true prophets without any screw-ups. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Second, as for you ‘pointing out the relevant scripture that ‘proves’ it came from satan’, I don’t recall you saying this, but feel free to bring it up again. At any rate, you are inaccurate to presume that. It could easily just be _me_, not God or satan. In fact, in all the times I’ve prophesied, I can say honestly that any time I’ve missed it has been me and not satan. There’s an easy yardstick to use: satan’s goal is always to steal, kill, and destroy. If it has a _NEGATIVE_ effect on someone, you might have been used by the enemy. Virtually every _miss_ I’ve ever seen, however, has simply been _neutral_ … ie, no positive or negative effect. Most words that are from the Lord bring tremendous encouragement and relief and challenge, like the Bible says they should. \*\* I apologize for quoting such lengthy sections, but I think we need to see FoG’s statements in full in order to see what’s going on. If we look at what the Bible has to say about false prophets like FoG: Deut 18:20-22 '“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."’ I also seem to remember verses which are even more strongly worded. Could someone help me out? FoG, it seems to me that you “spoke presumptuously.” You seem to blow it off as no big deal if you got it wrong- but in the time of Deuteronomy, you, yes, you personally, would have been put to death for what you did here. And do you really think your false prophecy was “neutral” in its effect, when it served to further convince many people that your religion is fit only for nincompoops? Like Jesus said, it would be better if a millstone had been tied around your neck. > [@](#): > > In the OLD Testement this is basically true, _(ie, that prophets always got everything right- Ben)_ but not in the New Testement. FoG, can you provide me with any scriptural support for this? If some of your prophecies are true and some are false, how do we know which we can trust? If I made prophecies, some of them would come true just by chance, and a lot would come true if I were skillful at cold reading. What % of the prophecies must come true before I am considered a true prophet of God? It seems to me that one logical answer would be 100%. > [@](#): > > \*\*??? Uhhh … honestly this entertains me. I don’t recall this being a burning question anywhere. I certainly believe he’s a real Christian! I respect him tremendously, although I don’t 100% agree with everything he does (but then, who can you agree 100% with). What ‘behavior’ are you talking about? \*\* I mentioned it three times in this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=60286&pagenumber=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=60286&pagenumber=2) I presented the post in question, in its entirety, twice. Here it is a third time: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ben_ > Incidentally, who better than the ACLJ to understand persecution? After all, the ACLJ is run by Pat Robertson, who tends to say things like this: > > (talking about apartheid South Africa) “I think ‘one man, one vote,’ just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights.”–Pat Robertson, “The 700 Club,” 3/18/92 > or how about this? > > “When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You’re not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?’ My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.’” --from Pat Robertson’s “The New World Order,” page 218. > > (taken from [http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7027/quotes.html](http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/7027/quotes.html)) > > So tell me, FoG: is Pat Robertson a real Christian? While we’re at it, you _still_ haven’t provided a single example of anti-Christian persecution in America which compares to the examples we gave of anti-Wiccan and anti-atheist bias. Would you care to address that? (If the moderators think it would be more appropriate, they can move this post to the pit, so as not to hijack this thread.) -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/114 "2001-03-16T06:31:51Z")
FoG: Do you recall this interchange in the _What Would It Take to Prove God’s Existence to You?_ thread you started? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Aside from sheer curiosity, as a born-again Christian I would like to know what to pray for more specifically for athiest friends. {FoG} > > Isn’t this kind of, you know, rude? Do you want your friends sitting around wishing that you will change your religious beliefs? I don’t. In fact, if they did, I would no longer consider them friends. {pldennison} > [@](#): > > On the contrary, if someone knew about something they thought would make my life better and _didn’t_ share it with me … I would not consider _that_ person a friend. {FoG} It appears to me that you don’t care if you’re perceived as rude but you’re certainly willing to accuse others of rudeness. Anyway, exactly how do you know those folks _ **aren’t** _ just doing the friendly thing by trying to make your life here better? For more edification please punch in “mormon” in the keyword field and “pldennison” in the poster field of this site’s search engine. You will see that he and I ended up in a very interesting conversation about religion after a bit. I wish you’d learn some of PL’s manners. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/115 "2001-03-16T20:26:15Z")
And I’d like to recommend another movie for **FoG** to see: _What Dreams May Come_ (though I heard the book was better). In the story, a doctor (Robin Williams) goes to Heaven after being hit by a car. After getting the feel of the place, he discovers that his wife was so distraught over his death, she has committed suicide and gone to Hell. He decides to go to Hell to get her out because Heaven would be Hell without her by his side, that it would be better to be in Hell with her than in Heaven without her. (A novel with a similar story that has yet to be filmed is Robert Heinlein’s _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, the word _comedy_ used as opposite of _tragedy_, meaning “a story with a happy ending.”) Jesus said you should reject anyone who tries to lead you from Him, even a loved one. I simply do not understand how someone could be happy in Heaven knowing a loved one, a spouse or parent or sibling or great friend, was suffering in the fiery Pits. Do you get amnesia in Heaven and simply forget they ever existed? It was that verse, Jesus commanding me to abandon my family if necessary, a family that loved me but not all of them believed (my father did not believe and I’m not sure what my brothers believe), that was the straw that broke the back of my faith and I have been an athiest ever since. (The thought that a murderer could go to Heaven while his victim could go to Hell didn’t help either.) Your religion encourages you to reject those who love you if they do not believe as you do. It’s selfishness writ large. It’s a shame you don’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/116 "2001-03-17T04:50:25Z")
**Monty** ’s response to the questions: > [@](#): > > As it is, I’m willing to bet real money that you have not studied Theology, but rather have studied your faith’s catechism. We don’t have a catechism. I’ve not seen one of those in decades! No, I’ve certainly studied dozens of issues in the Bible, some by myself, many with the assistance of excellent teachings. Most of my friends have as well. Believe it or not, in-depth study of the Bible is a routine part of many believers’ lives. > [@](#): > > Charismatic non-denominational? That sounds a lot like an Assemblies of God or other Pentacostal outfit, but I’ll take the time and effort to research it. To explain further … “Charismatic” is not a denomination. It is a descriptive term. There are in existence today: Charimatic Baptist Churches Charismatic Catholic Churches Charismatic Episcopalian Churches etc, etc, etc In addition to the above there are just “Charismatic” churches that don’t belong to a denomination, but that usually belong to a fellowship of like-minded churches for the purpose of accountability and covering. That’s the kind of church I belong to. Assemblies of God and Pentacostal _are_ denominations that were formed long before “Charismatic” churches started springing up in the early to mid 60s. They do, in fact, have similar beliefs to Charismatics. > [@](#): > > So your outfit feels that there are certain ecclesiastical offices which require certain qualifications before embarking on their missions, whatever those missions are? And you’re not one of them? I’ve never even attempted to get in full time ministry. > [@](#): > > Are you sure it’s Jesus? After all, again assuming Ben was correct {and you partially affirmed his assertion above, btw}, you’ve been mistaken on that, for at least a little while … Actually, my outfit also feels everyone should do “the real spiritual stuff,” as do many other outfits. But we certainly don’t condone misinformation. I don’t get your point here … You asked what qualifies me in my mission to spread God’s word, and I said it was my relationship with Jesus. How does my error in prophesy relate to this point? Okay, on to **Ben**. Ben, first, before I address any of your quotes, let me just say this overall: you strike me as someone who has made up his mind ahead of time what you will think no matter what I say. You seem hellbent on attacking me personally, and you will use and twist whatever tools you run across (including my own mistakes) to accomplish your goal. And you seem to be having tremendous fun doing it. Having said that, unless you drop your judgmental crusade, this will be my final comment on the subject. Feel free to rant and rave all day. To be honest, I could care less. You do not deserve any respect with the way you have raised these issues, and I will not give you any. > [@](#): > > Yes, you did deliver a false prophesy. You delivered a prophesy, and it was false. You admitted it was a prophesy. You admitted it was false. Why do you not admit it was a false prophesy? Read it again, Sherlock (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > As I was preparing to move on, _I think_ God gave me something for you. Is there something going on at your job that is causing great confusion, matt? That is what I am sensing. _Please correct me if I’m wrong._ _If what I’m sensing is indeed correct_, God has a word of encouragment for you. I pretty much bluntly said from the get go I wasn’t 100% sure. Obviously, since it was inaccurate, how can you or I or anyone call it a prophesy at all? It obviously wasn’t from the Lord. I thought I might have heard from the Lord, and I was wrong. It’s that simple. I realize this doesn’t match up with your desired scandal scenario, but that’s all it was Ben. > [@](#): > > pldennison responded rather negatively to this… Yeah, but did you bother to quote it? To this day, I _still_ stand by what I said to him that you quoted later! You neglected to mention that he said what he did **before** it became clear that I had missed God. I _did_ make one mistake in my response to him: I had momentarily thought _he_ was the one who’d made the request for an encouraging word in the first place (it was actually matt, who reacted much more reasonably to my error). Nonetheless, his contempt for the very idea that God could speak was pretty forceful and I don’t regret calling him on it one bit. Here’s a sample: > [@](#): > > OK, how many in the room right now can say, in all honesty, that there is not “something going on at your job that is causing great confusion”? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? > > That’s condescending crap, FoG, the kind of overly-broad nonsense that is published every day in newspaper horoscopes around the world. Please, please, do not treat people with such intellectual contempt, as if they just full off of a turnip truck. It does absolutely nothing to legitimize your position. It was pretty bitter bile, not to mention inaccurate. He made drastic assumptions (especially that I was trying to ‘prove a point’) and made it seem like it was ‘easy prophesy’ (ie, that surely _EVERYONE_ was having confusion at work). It’s still pretty funny to me that the fact that what I said was _wrong_ proved pldennison wrong as well! Back to Ben’s comments in this thread: > [@](#): > > That’s right, folks- even if FoG gets it wrong, it’s a “slap in the face” to God for criticising FoG for making false prophecies. Again … the problem here was the comment was made _before_ he knew one way or the other if it was right or wrong. It’s two separate issues. This is not too hard Ben. Look at which posts come first. He was essentially saying there’s no way it could be from God because that applies to _ALL_ of us! Again, it’s quite entertaining that it _didn’t_ apply to matt, proving both of us wrong. > [@](#): > > Isaiah didn’t “flat out miss it,” ever, because unlike you, he’s a real prophet. Real prophets do not miss. Ever . . . FoG, it seems to me that you “spoke presumptuously.” You seem to blow it off as no big deal if you got it wrong- but in the time of Deuteronomy, you, yes, you personally, would have been put to death for what you did here . . . FoG, can you provide me with any scriptural support for this? _(ie, that in the OT this is true but not in the NT)_ In response to this I go back to what I said in the original thread and what I’ve repeated here: my biggest mistake was I shouldn’t have even tried it without it being in the context of clear biblical teaching on prophesy. Ben, I will give you credit on one point: your misconception about prophesy is very common, even among Christians. But just because it _sounds_ right doesn’t mean it is. I am not going to do an in-depth Bible study on this point, but the role of the prophet in the OT is totally different from the role of the prophet in the NT. You can study it yourself if you really want to get into it. It’s really a pretty fascinating study. Here is the 50 cent version: in the OT, prophets were the _ONLY_ way to hear God. As you cited, they had to be 100% accurate because what they said was literally practically the equivalent of scripture – God’s word to man. So there was no margin for error. In the NT, Jesus actually lives _inside_ each of us, and each _individual_ believer is responsible for hearing God for their own personal life for direction. The role of the prophet is dramatically reduced in the NT. Here are a few of the relevant scriptures (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > For we know _in part_ and we prophesy _in part_, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears (I Corinthians 13:9-10) _(ie, as opposed to knowing and prophesying perfectly, it’s ‘in part’)_ > > But _everyone_ who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort (I Corinthians 14:3) _(ie, as opposed to the OT in which many times prophets were called on to rebuke and correct)_ > > _In the past_ God spoke to our forefathers _through the prophets_ at many times and in various ways, _but_ in these last days he has spoken _to us by his Son_ … (Hebrews 1:1-2a) _(Note: this is verse 1 and 2 of Hebrews, the book that explains the difference in the OT and NT)_ In a nutshell, an NT prophet is not the sole source, or even the primary source, of the voice of God, as opposed to an OT prophet. I am responsible for hearing God for myself. The way I’ve seen prophesy work, it usually is a confirming and encouraging word about something God has _already_ told you to do. I’ve seen a _few_ of the ‘heads up’ type prophesies as well, where it’s _not_ something God had already said, but at a later date the issue comes up and then you go back and realize it was mentioned in a prophesy you got a year ago! At any rate, each Christian is responsible to _not_ take a prophet’s word as equal to the word of God, or even as equal to ‘what God is saying to me’. A prophet in the NT can miss God completely and still be a valid prophet, as opposed to the OT, because his/her role is drastically reduced. The individual is responsible to see if it jibes both with scripture _and_ with what God is saying to them. Having said that, obviously an NT prophet has to be accurate the vast majority of the time if they hope to have an effective ministry! I’ve seen some that are fairly marginal, and I’ve seen a couple that are accurate over 95% of the time! One of my all time favorite prophet stories is from the early 80s when a prophet came to our church and prophesied one person at a time to each person in one of the bible studies in our church (about 30 or so people). He was accurate with each one, except for two people. These two people are sisters and were very good friends of mine at the time. The guy got them swapped! He described one of them to a T … only it was the other sister he was describing! And then vice versa. Everyone cracked up because they knew the guy had just gotten his wires crossed! It was pretty funny. I’ve seen other similar things as well. But again, having said that, you obviously need to be accurate the vast majority of the time regardless of what I said earlier. That’s _some_ of what I meant by ‘I shouldn’t have tried to prophesy without clear sciptural teaching surrounding it’. > [@](#): > > If we look at what the Bible has to say about false prophets like FoG: Note: I am not a prophet at all, nor have I ever claimed to be one, so how can I be a false one? 😉 Regarding the Pat Robertson quotes … giving your penchant for quoting out of context, I’d have to hear the entire context of his quote about South Africa to even begin to comment. I have no idea what his overall point was and if I agree or disagree. Even if I disagree, why would that not make him a Christian? As for the other quote: I agree with him 100%. Even if it weren’t true, if Pat Robertson were elected President, it would be his business who he wanted for key positions. If he wants all Christians and thinks that’s best for the country, that’s what he should do! I happen to think that those with Judeo Christian values would lead the country in the right direction. Obviously many people on this board would disagree and maybe even find that offensive. Interestingly, many nonbelievers think the exact opposite: that ‘religious people’ have no place in the political process and should not even run for office. > [@](#): > > While we’re at it, you still haven’t provided a single example of anti-Christian persecution in America which compares to the examples we gave of anti-Wiccan and anti-atheist bias. Would you care to address that? You know what? It finally hit me about a week ago that I could care less if anyone believes Christians are harassed in America today! There are many more important issues I am concerned with. So yes, I believe Christians are harassed in the USA today, and no, I am not going to try to prove to you it’s true, nor do I care if you do or don’t believe it’s true. Okay Ben … there you go. I doubt this got anything out of your system but that’s my final word. Have fun with it. {fixed code. --Gaudere} [Edited by Gaudere on 03-17-2001 at 11:28 AM] ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/117 "2001-03-17T04:55:21Z")
Grr … who is it that always says ‘Preview is my friend’? Sorry about the messed up italics. Here are the scriptures I quoted near the end, with my emphasis (since it couldnt be seen in my original post with everything in italic): > [@](#): > > For we know in part and _we prophesy in part_, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears (I Corinthians 13:9-10) \*(ie, as opposed to knowing and prophesying perfectly, it’s ‘in part’) \* > > But _everyone_ who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort (I Corinthians 14:3) \*(ie, as opposed to the OT in which many times prophets were called on to rebuke and correct) \* > > In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son … (Hebrews 1:1-2a) _(Note: this is verse 1 and 2 of Hebrews, the book that explains the difference in the OT and NT)_ ---
**Author:** ![FriendofGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@FriendofGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendofGod)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/118 "2001-03-17T05:11:45Z")
**jab1** said: > [@](#): > > Jesus said you should reject anyone who tries to lead you from Him, even a loved one. I simply do not understand how someone could be happy in Heaven knowing a loved one, a spouse or parent or sibling or great friend, was suffering in the fiery Pits. Do you get amnesia in Heaven and simply forget they ever existed? > > It was that verse, Jesus commanding me to abandon my family if necessary, a family that loved me but not all of them believed (my father did not believe and I’m not sure what my brothers believe), that was the straw that broke the back of my faith and I have been an athiest ever since. (The thought that a murderer could go to Heaven while his victim could go to Hell didn’t help either.) > > Your religion encourages you to reject those who love you if they do not believe as you do. It’s selfishness writ large. It’s a shame you don’t see that. Wow, I really appreciate the honesty in your post. If I may, I’d love to give you food for thought: I am assuming you are referring to this rather famous passage: > [@](#): > > If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters – yes, even his own life – he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26) Yet, four chapters earlier, a man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, and the man replied (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and _Love your neighbor as yourself_.” “You have answered _correctly_,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:27-28) So Jesus says here (and elsewhere) that the way to eternal life is love God with everything in you and love everyone around you as you love yourself! Yet in chapter 14 He says you have to _hate_ those closest to you to follow Him! Doesn’t seem to jibe does it? The latter passage matches up with other things Jesus said and other messages in the Bible. What could He have meant, then, by the earlier passage? This is my take on it. When you think of hate, you think of a large chasm between two people. If two people hate each other, there is a great distance between them. In the context of Jesus’ overall message, I take the earlier passage to mean this: that your love and devotion and commitment to God are so total and complete, that the _DISTANCE_ between your love for Him and your love for your family is as _LONG_ as the distance between two people who hate each other. This is verbalized in many ways between married couples I’ve seen. Every Godly married couple I’ve seen would not have married their spouse if the person had loved _them_ MORE than they loved God! I am that way myself. I will not marry a woman that loves me _more_ than they love God! And that’s a foundation for a _very_ healthy marriage, because if you love God _THAT_ much more than anyone else, _His_ love will become a part of you, and you will love your wife and kids and everyone else all the more! But let’s take an extreme and far fetched example. Suppose after 30 years of marriage my wife turns her back on God and comes to me and says, “You have to choose: it’s either me or Him”. Without hestitation I would choose God, even though it would break my heart. My devotion to Him is so great, that it’s as if there’s a chasm between my devotion to Him and to anyone else … a chasm as large as if I hated someone. Anyway, I hope that gives you something to chew on. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/119 "2001-03-17T05:12:47Z")
> [@](#): > > unless you drop your judgmental crusade “Physician, heal thyself.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-movie-that-might-change-your-life-or-at-least-make-you-think/57069/120 "2001-03-17T05:58:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriendofGod \* > We don’t have a catechism. I’ve not seen one of those in decades! I’m not talking about the Roman Catholic Catechism, FoG. For your further edification, here’s the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition for you: > [@](#): > > cat_e_chism (noun) > > First appeared 1502 > > 1 : oral instruction > 2 : a manual for catechizing; specifically : a summary of religious doctrine often in the form of questions and answers > 3 a : a set of formal questions put as a test > b : something resembling a catechism esp. in being a rote response or formulaic statement So, you see, a course of instruction is a catechism. The word is not solely used for Roman Catholic instruction. > [@](#): > > No, I’ve certainly studied dozens of issues in the Bible, some by myself, many with the assistance of excellent teachings. Most of my friends have as well. Not to be rude, but from your postings here, I’d say those teachers have been quite lacking. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, in-depth study of the Bible is a routine part of many believers’ lives. And yet, I study the Scriptures in depth, and come to different conclusions than you do. Perhaps it’s not the Scriptures at fault but the individual? _Note that this could mean I’m mistaken, it could mean you’re mistaken, and it could mean that we’re both mistaken._ What amazes me is that you refuse to accept that you could possibly be mistaken when you assign to God statements, by your own admission later, he didn’t make. > [@](#): > > To explain further … “Charismatic” is not a denomination. It is a descriptive term. There are in existence today: > > Charimatic Baptist Churches > Charismatic Catholic Churches > Charismatic Episcopalian Churches > > etc, etc, etc > > In addition to the above there are just “Charismatic” churches that don’t belong to a denomination, but that usually belong to a fellowship of like-minded churches for the purpose of accountability and covering. That’s the kind of church I belong to. I know that charasmatic is an adjective. I was merely pointing out what your description of your denomination sounds like to me. > [@](#): > > Assemblies of God and Pentacostal _are_ denominations that were formed long before “Charismatic” churches started springing up in the early to mid 60s. They do, in fact, have similar beliefs to Charismatics. Your timeline is far off. > [@](#): > > I’ve never even attempted to get in full time ministry. Where did I ask “full-time?” > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Are you sure it’s Jesus? After all, again assuming Ben was correct {and you partially affirmed his assertion above, btw}, you’ve been mistaken on that, for at least a little while … Actually, my outfit also feels everyone should do “the real spiritual stuff,” as do many other outfits. But we certainly don’t condone misinformation. > > I don’t get your point here … You asked what qualifies me in my mission to spread God’s word, and I said it was my relationship with Jesus. How does my error in prophesy relate to this point? Because that shows that you, yourself, do not know who the spirit moving you is. That was obviously Ben’s point and it obviously is my point. Since you admittedly don’t know who the spirit moving you is, you can not be sure that you are carrying out the Lord’s work _because you don’t know, by your own admission, who’s telling you to do that work_. > [@](#): > > Note: I am not a prophet at all, nor have I ever claimed to be one, so how can I be a false one? 😉 You claimed that God told you something; therefore, you laid claim to prophesy. Here’s what the _Prophetic People News_\* (Issue 3-96 of August 1996 {[The University of Queensland, Australia](http://www.uq.net.au/~zzproph/n396.html)}) has to say on the subject ( **bolding** and underlining brought to you by _Monty_): > [@](#): > > The presiding Pastor listed the following 10 **distinguishing features of a true prophet**. > > 1. Lays foundational truth. > \*\*2. Moves under divine direction. \*\* > 2. Exalts, exhorts, corrects, confirms, adjusts and counsels his peers in ministry. > **4. Ability to predict future events.** > 3. Ability to lay hands upon for ministry. > 4. Exposes sin. > **7. Knows secrets of God.** > **8. Submits to judgements of other prophets.** > **9. Speaks for God to individuals, churches and nations.** > 5. Brings perfecting and maturing of the saints. > There are other distinguishing characteristics of the prophets ministry but this list adequately demonstates the unique role the prophets can, and must play within the body of Christ. > > **Prophets are to know the mind of God and to make it known to their generation by word and by deed.** You claimed to know God’s mind, and thus you were claiming distinguishing characteristic #9 along with the bolded sentence below #10. That means you claimed to be a prophet. I trust I don’t have to explain why I emphasized the other portions. > [@](#): > > Interestingly, many nonbelievers think the exact opposite: that ‘religious people’ have no place in the political process and should not even run for office. Cite? I know very many non-religious folks who don’t mind religious folks running for office. What those folks object to is those religious folks who state they’ll legislate their religion. That does not mean the non-religious folks object to religious folks _en toto_. {Please advise if you need a refresher course in Venn Diagrams and Set Theory. I’ll be more than pleased to oblige.} > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > While we’re at it, you still haven’t provided a single example of anti-Christian persecution in America which compares to the examples we gave of anti-Wiccan and anti-atheist bias. Would you care to address that? > > You know what? It finally hit me about a week ago that I could care less if anyone believes Christians are harassed in America today! There are many more important issues I am concerned with. So yes, I believe Christians are harassed in the USA today, and no, I am not going to try to prove to you it’s true, nor do I care if you do or don’t believe it’s true. Here’s the crux of the issue, though: you claimed that Christians in America are systematically harrassed. Going by Characteristic #1 quoted above, either (a) it’s a foundational truth, or (b) you violated the commandment against bearing false witness. BTW: the correct remark is: “I couldn’t care less.” The reason Ben doesn’t believe your assertion is true is that it’s demonstrably false. And your record as a prophet is 0 for 1. Christians in the United States of America are not systematically harrassed. If anything, many of them are dong the harrassing of other faiths (that’s been pointed out to you on this board–I don’t imagine I need to post the links; however, if you ask, I shall)! \*For the uninitiated, I promised FoG I’d do some research into Liberty Fellowship and found this link and also found out that there’s about 200 or so folks in the denomination, if you only count the ecclesiastical authorities (as FoG did in his earlier answer to me). 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