# Yet another pre-emptive move to the pit
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 23, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365 "2009-12-23T20:32:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/81 "2009-12-27T06:55:18Z")
> [@padabe](#):
>
> That’s not a reason.
>
> I recognize that the OP was inflammatory. Others have suggested that it was intentionally so, but I’m not at all convinced of that. In fact, I was rather surprised to see the charge leveled. But here’s the thing: It’s irrelevant. Anyone here can pit another member at any time (save the mods, apparently–I guess no one is safe from arbitrary rules).
Ok, fine. But it still wasn’t due to some sort of desire on Twickster to passively pit Lissener. You may disagree with the decision, but there’s no reason to not take what she said about it at other than face value. Except for Lissener who seems bent on playing the victim card.
Given the backlash, I doubt we’ll ever see it happen again anyway.
---
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/82 "2009-12-27T07:03:24Z")
I’m not responding to an individual word in your last post. Most of your argument has been that **twickster** attacked you by moving the thread. For example: “Twickster pitted me by proxy.”
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/83 "2009-12-27T07:17:21Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> Mods should moderate and maintain order. That means keeping discussions in non-Pit threads civil and on point.
>
> If an OP wants a civil discussion, the OP will not start a Pit thread but instead will elect to put the thread in a forum where civil discussions may be had.
>
> Mods moving threads to the Pit just because the Mod feels the subject matter of the thread or a post in a thread is pitworthy is an abuse of power.
>
> People start and post in non-Pit threads with an expectation of civility and with an expectation that such civility will be maintained and even enforced by Mods.
>
> If other members feel a thread or post is pitworthy, then those members are free to start a Pit thread.
>
> If a Mod feels a thread or post is pit-worthy, then the Mod should start a Pit thread. If there is a rule against that, then change the rule, accept the rule as a condition of being a Mod, or don’t be a Mod.
I should add that I do realize that some threads do spin out of control and go beyond a Mod’s ability to salvage. I also don’t know and do not assume that **twickster** was pitting by proxy.
However, in this case, it appears moving the thread was premature at best insofar as **twickster** made no attempt to moderate before dumping the thread in the Pit. I think a good faith effort at moderation should be made first.
I also question whether any non-Pit thread, begun in good faith as a non-Pit topic, should be moved to the Pit if the discussion breaks down that far. It seems locking it is the better way to go out of respect for the OP’s intent of having a civil discussion by starting a non-Pit topic. Let someone else start the Pit thread.
---
### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/84 "2009-12-27T07:46:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I’m not responding to an individual word in your last post. Most of your argument has been that **twickster** attacked you by moving the thread. For example: “Twickster pitted me by proxy.”
Must I really rewrite all of my posts before you’ll acknowledge any single point beyond the personal, or speculations as to twickster’s motivations? Is that honestly all you read in everything I and others have written in this thread?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/85 "2009-12-27T07:59:10Z")
Which point hasn’t been addressed? You said **twickster** pitted you by proxy (not true), you said she abused her power (not true), you suggested she broke a rule (not true).
Those aside: yes, I understand you’re upset about the move. I get that you feel that when she put the thread in the Pit, it was an invitation for other posters to call you names, because you feel it guided the thread in a direction you didn’t want it to go in. It’s easy to understand why you are displeased on that score. The point I’ve tried to make, and I think **twickster** has said the same thing, is that both of those things were going to happen inevitably because of what you posted. They were not caused by the moving of the thread.
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/86 "2009-12-27T08:07:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> The point I’ve tried to make, and I think **twickster** has said the same thing, is that both of those things were going to happen inevitably because of what you posted.
The problem is the assumption of inevitability, though.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/87 "2009-12-27T08:19:00Z")
I don’t think making a judgment based on experience is a problem. I understand people are sometimes going to disagree with the conclusions, and I realize there isn’t a way to run a side by side comparison of how **lissener** ’s thread might have played out in MPSIMS compared to how it went in the Pit. But in the end I don’t think the difference was that great: you would have seen a different writing style (and probably some warnings) but just as much criticism of **lissener**.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/88 "2009-12-27T12:57:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I understand people are sometimes going to disagree with the conclusions, and I realize there isn’t a way to run a side by side comparison of how **lissener** ’s thread might have played out in MPSIMS compared to how it went in the Pit. But in the end I don’t think the difference was that great: you would have seen a different writing style (and probably some warnings) but just as much criticism of **lissener**.
I still don’t don’t understand the concept of preemptively moving a thread because you _think_ it will become a Pit thread. It seems to me that policy should be to move threads once they already fit the forum. And, honestly, I’ve never seen otherwise. Every thread I’ve seen moved to the Pit already had the characteristics of a Pit thread before it was moved.
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t think making a judgment based on experience is a problem.
Can you provide me with other threads that **twickster** has moderated in this way?
Please note that I am trying not to impugn anyone’s character here. I can believe **twickster** ’s version of the events (though I wonder if her decision on whether to close or pit was subconsciously influenced by disliking the topic). I think the decision to move to the Pit was incorrect, and that such shouldn’t happen in the future.
To me, it seems that **twickster** has a habit of pulling the trigger too fast (cf. the warnings that could have been mod notes first), and that maybe she needs to slow down a bit.
Oh, and **lissner** : never assume malice where ignorance (of how the move would be interpreted) will do.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/89 "2009-12-27T13:38:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I don’t think making a judgment based on experience is a problem. I understand people are sometimes going to disagree with the conclusions, and I realize there isn’t a way to run a side by side comparison of how **lissener** ’s thread might have played out in MPSIMS compared to how it went in the Pit. But in the end I don’t think the difference was that great: you would have seen a different writing style (and probably some warnings) but just as much criticism of **lissener**.
I will definitely second this. I move threads out of IMHO and into either Great Debates or The BBQ Pit all the time, based on nothing but experience. There are hot-button topics out there that incite others, and no amount of moderator suggestions and/or warnings will prevent the inevitable from happening.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/90 "2009-12-27T13:54:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> I will definitely second this. I move threads out of IMHO and into either Great Debates or The BBQ Pit all the time, based on nothing but experience. There are hot-button topics out there that incite others, and no amount of moderator suggestions and/or warnings will prevent the inevitable from happening.
Coming from the guy who _de facto_ pitted someone above for not stopping at stop signs. (You even put the pit post in your moderating) I don’t think your opinion is going to count for much.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/91 "2009-12-27T14:10:08Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> Coming from the guy who _de facto_ pitted someone above for not stopping at stop signs. (You even put the pit post in your moderating) I don’t think your opinion is going to count for much.
I will give your criticism of my moderating all the attention it deserves.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/92 "2009-12-27T14:35:52Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> Coming from the guy who _de facto_ pitted someone above for not stopping at stop signs. (You even put the pit post in your moderating) I don’t think your opinion is going to count for much.
Yes, while **twickster** ’s motives are unclear, **Czarcasm** ’s calling **Bearflag** an asshole _while_ moving the thread leaves no doubt that it was a “pitting by proxy”. twickster’s position is definitely not aided by his support.
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### Author:  [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/93 "2009-12-27T15:08:24Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> The problem is the assumption of inevitability, though.
The assumption seems valid to me. The thread, IIRC, went into the dumper pretty much right away.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/94 "2009-12-27T18:09:25Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> I still don’t don’t understand the concept of preemptively moving a thread because you _think_ it will become a Pit thread. It seems to me that policy should be to move threads once they already fit the forum.
Because that involves waiting for the inevitable insults and trainwreck, and giving out warnings. Why not avoid that if we can?
> [@](#):
>
> Can you provide me with other threads that **twickster** has moderated in this way?
[This one, maybe.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11644688#post11644688) You could argue this was a similar move in that it’s another topic that was going to draw vehement responses.
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### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/95 "2009-12-27T18:29:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Because that involves waiting for the inevitable insults and trainwreck, and giving out warnings. Why not avoid that if we can?
Because the so-called “inevitable” trainwreck is based upon speculation and nothing more than an assumption that civil discourse cannot be had.
Instead of moving a non-Pit topic to the Pit when it appears the tone of a thread is degenerating, why not just issue a general warning and instruct the people making insults or otherwise derailing the thread to take it to the Pit? That way, people who CAN remain civil may continue the discussion civilly and those who CANNOT remain civil have a place to go. A preemptive Pit move deprives those who CAN remain civil of a civil discussion.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/96 "2009-12-27T19:15:10Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> Instead of moving a non-Pit topic to the Pit when it appears the tone of a thread is degenerating, why not just issue a general warning and instruct the people making insults or otherwise derailing the thread to take it to the Pit? That way, people who CAN remain civil may continue the discussion civilly and those who CANNOT remain civil have a place to go. A preemptive Pit move deprives those who CAN remain civil of a civil discussion.
Exactly. This would have been a much better way to handle the situation.
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### Author:  [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/97 "2009-12-27T21:31:41Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#):
>
> Because the so-called “inevitable” trainwreck is based upon speculation and nothing more than an assumption that civil discourse cannot be had.
>
> Instead of moving a non-Pit topic to the Pit when it appears the tone of a thread is degenerating, why not just issue a general warning and instruct the people making insults or otherwise derailing the thread to take it to the Pit? That way, people who CAN remain civil may continue the discussion civilly and those who CANNOT remain civil have a place to go. A preemptive Pit move deprives those who CAN remain civil of a civil discussion.
What “civil discourse” is going to happen in a thread where someone posts what Lissener posted?
It was clear at the outset where the thread was headed. So instead of having to babysit the thread, the mods put it where it didn’t have to be policed.
Keep in mind we’re not talking about hypothetical threads, we’re talking about that specific thread.
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### Author:  [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/98 "2009-12-27T21:38:15Z")
> [@tacoloco](#):
>
> What “civil discourse” is going to happen in a thread where someone posts what Lissener posted?
>
> It was clear at the outset where the thread was headed. So instead of having to babysit the thread, the mods put it where it didn’t have to be policed.
>
> Keep in mind we’re not talking about hypothetical threads, we’re talking about that specific thread.
Are you saying some subjects are so terrible that they compel people to post angry vitriol and must be moved to the pit preemptively?
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/99 "2009-12-27T21:44:56Z")
> [@tacoloco](#):
>
> What “civil discourse” is going to happen in a thread where someone posts what Lissener posted?
>
> It was clear at the outset where the thread was headed. So instead of having to babysit the thread, the mods put it where it didn’t have to be policed.
>
> Keep in mind we’re not talking about hypothetical threads, we’re talking about that specific thread.
It still has to be policed. If you didn’t notice, there’s a whole bunch of rules in the Pit nowadays about what words you can use, how insulting towards others you can be and the old no threats of violence.
But regardless, there are plenty of threads in MPSIMS where people just make admissions and/or mention their personal examples without much real “discourse” going on. This could have been one of them with a simple warning from twickster to “take your rage to the Pit”. Why must the MPSIMS mods save morons from themselves because they can’t follow the rules and start a Pit thread on their own? It’s really not tough. You click a button, type “[link] I think you’re scum”, hit another button.
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### Author:  [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-pre-emptive-move-to-the-pit/522365/100 "2009-12-27T21:53:10Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#):
>
> Are you saying some subjects are so terrible that they compel people to post angry vitriol and must be moved to the pit preemptively?
No. I’m talking about that particular thread, which was a trainwreck from the start.
Please don’t try to generalize the intent of my comment.
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