# Yet another reason to Pit the NRA - no taggants in gunpowder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031 "2013-04-18T13:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/541 "2013-05-12T20:37:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sometimes. But we are also entitled to make inferences from known facts, if those inferences are not contradicted by known facts. This is a debate, not a court of law, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not the standard. > > Known fact: the NRA vociferously and resolutely opposes the addition of taggants to gunpowder. No. The NRA once did, back in 1999. I disagree that even that was vociferous or resolute. But since 1999, they haven’t said shit about the issue. How can an organization that hasn’t said a blessed thing about an issue in thirteen years be at all said to “vociferously and resolutely” have any opinion on that issue? > [@](#): > > Known fact: fireworks are made up of gunpowder and diverse ingredients, depending on the desired effect. BWAHAHAHAHA!!! You don’t know shit about gunpowder. The ratio of ingredients used in firearms gunpowder is dramatically different from fireworks powder. It’s not just the “diverse ingredients.” It’s the basic formulation of the powder itself. It is absolutely false to say, " Fireworks are made up of gunpowder and diverse ingredients." They both use powder. But batteries and household current are both “electricity.” The comparisons that can be made between them are limited. > [@](#): > > Inference: the NRA opposed the addition of taggants and registration for fireworks gunpowder, or would have had the question been broached. To suggest otherwise is contrary to their stated positions and actions. Such a suggestion \*might \* be valid, but that suggestion is the one that needs to be proven, since it is contrary to a reasonable inference based solidly on known fact. There is no reason the NRA would or should care about fireworks powder – the only reason you imagine they would is because of your vast ignorance on the subject and inability to understand the differences between the substances. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/542 "2013-05-12T20:42:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And the common ingredient in fireworks is cottage cheese? Wow. You seriously imagined that fireworks use the same substance as the stuff that makes bullets fly out of a barrel, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/543 "2013-05-12T21:07:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. The NRA once did, back in 1999. I disagree that even that was vociferous or resolute. But since 1999, they haven’t said shit about the issue. > > How can an organization that hasn’t said a blessed thing about an issue in thirteen years be at all said to “vociferously and resolutely” have any opinion on that issue? > > BWAHAHAHAHA!!! > > You don’t know shit about gunpowder. > > The ratio of ingredients used in firearms gunpowder is dramatically different from fireworks powder. It’s not just the “diverse ingredients.” It’s the basic formulation of the powder itself. It is absolutely false to say, " Fireworks are made up of gunpowder and diverse ingredients." They both use powder. But batteries and household current are both “electricity.” The comparisons that can be made between them are limited. > > There is no reason the NRA would or should care about fireworks powder – the only reason you imagine they would is because of your vast ignorance on the subject and inability to understand the differences between the substances. According to this page: > **[Finding the Right Black Powder For Fireworks](https://www.skylighter.com/blogs/fireworks-information/black-powder-for-fireworks)** > > Confused or having a hard time making sense of all the black powder grades? Well, here's how to find the "right" type black powder to use in your fireworks. > > The manufacturers classify Black Powder types and grain sizes by the numbers and letters... > [@](#): > > In the USA, gun stores will sell you Cannon Grade, 1FG, and 5FG black powders as suitable substitutes respectively for the most commonly used 2FA (for lift and burst), 4FA (for lift and burst), and Meal D (for rice hulls and priming). Doesn’t sound hugely different. But I’m not a fireworks guy and have never fired a cannon. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/544 "2013-05-12T21:10:52Z")
By the way, Bricker, since you believe that people are guilty of _supporting whatever they don’t post against and decry_, you should go to the Benghazi thread and take a stand on whichever side makes the most sense to you. Chop chop, otherwise we’ll assume you side with \*\*adaher \*\*and he’s making conservatives look even worse than you do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/545 "2013-05-12T21:17:16Z")
Stripping away the gossamer threads of distraction in your posts: the NRA opposed taggants in gunpowder n 1998. And to say that they haven’t said anything since is lawyerese for not having changed their stance. Hence, however vociferous they may or not be, they are on record and remain so. Remain so being the operative words. As in not having changed one’s position. And if their position was, as we aver, largely responsible for the failure of taggant laws to come to be, and that position has not changed, then it is entirely reasonable to place responsibility on that position. > [@](#): > > BWAHAHAHAHA!!! > > You don’t know shit about gunpowder. > **[United Nuclear , Scientific Equipment & Supplies](https://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index)** > > United Nuclear : - What's New Radiation and Nuclear Chemistry Tools And Equipment Electronic & Electrical General Science General Interest Neodymium Magnets Gift Certificates Area 51 Restricted to UPS Only Element Samples High Voltage Solar Power... > [@](#): > > Black Powder (Gunpowder) is the backbone of pyrotechnics…Black Powder is the main ingredient in a variety of firework and rocket formulas…Keep in mind that Black Powder, Gunpowder, Lift Powder, Grain Powder, and Meal Powder are basically all the same material… > > As far as fireworks are concerned, Black Powder is used both in its finely powdered form (Meal Powder) for coating starts and for mixing in other pyrotechnic formulas, and in its granulated form (Lift Powder) for launching shells out of a mortar, or stars out of a Roman Candle… Here my cite. Where’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/546 "2013-05-12T22:13:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wow. > > You seriously imagined that fireworks use the same substance as the stuff that makes bullets fly out of a barrel, didn’t you? Wouldn’t make any difference if I did, since we are talking about making bombs. Doesn’t bother me you think I’m stupid, find it rather convenient, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/547 "2013-05-13T00:32:38Z")
It may help to remember that the original impetus to gunpowder taggants was related entirely to their application as bomb material, as outlined in this article: [http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950502&slug=2118763](http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950502&slug=2118763) **Tag Explosives To Trace Bombs? Nra, Others Blocked Research** > [@](#): > > Almost 20 years ago the government developed a way to mark explosives to help trace terrorist bombs. But Congress blocked the research, even after a test of the device helped catch a bomber in Baltimore. > > Lobbying by the explosives industry and the National Rifle Association, citing safety concerns, buried the idea… Why? Well what else but… > [@](#): > > …The NRA raised similar safety complaints about taggants in gunpowder, and also likened it to federal registration of firearms. The government wanted to mark the black powder used by owners of old-style muzzleloading guns because it is often used in pipe bombs. > > “The NRA was pretty vocal,” said Jim Pasco, a former BATF assistant director who is now executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police. “This would have been one tremendous leap forward, and it was just stopped cold.” > > A 1980 report by congressional investigators called taggants “useful law enforcement tools against terrorists,” but also urged more study to settle the safety questions. > > The report, by the Office of Technology Assessment, predicted the safety research could be completed in time to require the markers in explosives by 1984. > > Instead, Congress cut off all spending on the taggant program… I suggest that the political clout of the NRA is very much on display here. You may wish to lay the blame elsewhere, perhaps the League of Women Voters, or ACORN. Maybe CASA. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/548 "2013-05-13T01:09:59Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > The only thing you _are_ discussing is purportedly what we are _not_ discussing. Who is this “we”? Those who only have a case by imposing a ridiculously narrow and pointless limit on what they will deign to acknowledge as relevant? That’s a \*\*Bricker \*\*tactic. You should be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/549 "2013-05-13T01:24:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Who is this “we”? All those who are discussing something. In other words, everyone but you. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/550 "2013-05-13T02:35:45Z")
I am not going to get into this argument, the only reason I’m posting is because I made corned black powder this weekend. I understand that I could refine it further, with less risk. Waves at the HLS folks. Everything I learned was from Cowboy role players. I’m not going to refine it, but the powder worked very well in my flintlock. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/551 "2013-05-13T04:54:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And the common ingredient in fireworks is cottage cheese? > > Unless there is a dramatic improvement in your postings, I will not be addressing them. Not because I’m rude, I am, yes, but because you are too stubborn to argue with and too stupid to educate. Hahahaha. Yes, as far as you are concerned, cottage cheese is used in fireworks and has added taggants for safety and identification. You’re a hoot. Your limited understanding of black powder presents little threat of you being able to “educate” anyone on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/552 "2013-05-13T05:18:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It may help to remember that the original impetus to gunpowder taggants was related entirely to their application as bomb material, as outlined in this article: > > [http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950502&slug=2118763](http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950502&slug=2118763) > > **Tag Explosives To Trace Bombs? Nra, Others Blocked Research** > > Why? Well what else but… > > I suggest that the political clout of the NRA is very much on display here. You may wish to lay the blame elsewhere, perhaps the League of Women Voters, or ACORN. Maybe CASA. \*A 1980 report by congressional investigators called taggants “useful law enforcement tools against terrorists,” but also urged more study to settle the safety questions. The report, by the Office of Technology Assessment, predicted the safety research could be completed in time to require the markers in explosives by 1984. Instead, Congress cut off all spending on the taggant program\*… What’s this? There were “safety questions” about the use of taggants? Taggants weren’t considered safe to use? What a surprise. Whos funding did Congress cut off? Was a government agency developing taggants using taxpayer money or was a private company told they couldn’t use THEIR OWN MONEY to research taggants? FYI - No one is preventing you from developing or researching your own taggants. Not even the NRA. According to your linked article: _The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) began developing taggants in 1974. Each chip, about the size of a grain of sand, carries a microscopic color code that shows where and when the explosives were made. **They can be gathered with magnets or viewed with fluorescent light**._ Wow, taggants can be gathered magnets and fluorescent lights. That must come as quite a shock to you. Are you assuming that taggants that can be collected with magnets and fluorescent lights AFTER an explosion could NOT be found using magnets and fluorescent lights DURING the bomb making process? :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031.md?page=27)