# Yet another reason to Pit the NRA - no taggants in gunpowder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031 "2013-04-18T13:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/81 "2013-04-19T07:46:50Z")
Like a bomber would use his own name or a real ID when buying his supplies in the first place. There is a reason why every country in the world save Switzerland stopped requiring taggents; and it obviously wasnt the NRA… Blaming the NRA for a rare and random bombing makes about as much sense as blaming the ACLU for many rapes and murders because the ACLU makes it harder to arrest and convict rapists and murderers by arguing that the government respect the constitutional rights of the evil. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/82 "2013-04-19T10:08:44Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Like a bomber would use his own name or a real ID when buying his supplies in the first place. It doesn’t matter. Where and when it was purchased can narrow down an investigation from a thousand suspects to five. I have no idea if the NRA supports taggants or not. Their current SOP is to oppose anything sensible on guns and the same people arguing against taggants seem to be the same people that go along with the NRA on everything. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/83 "2013-04-19T12:12:44Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > It doesn’t matter. Where and when it was purchased can narrow down an investigation from a thousand suspects to five. > > I have no idea if the NRA supports taggants or not. Their current SOP is to oppose anything sensible on guns and the same people arguing against taggants seem to be the same people that go along with the NRA on everything. It would not narrow down the suspect list to anywhere near 5. Gunpowder/blackpowder is not dynamite. Many more people buy it and it is bought much more frequently; thus batches would be much bigger. Also,I wonder, whether internet sales would allow the baddies to buy their explosives from some country that didnt mandate taggents? Also lets not forget that taggents were inside dynamite. Whats to say that they couldnt be filtered/removed from powder? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/84 "2013-04-19T12:24:55Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > So picture this… > A: Nope, not a fucking clue boss. Abby would \*never \*say anything like that. ☹ No, you know as well as we do she’d have all ten taggants identified and PDF"s of the sales slips on-screen in about two seconds. Then Garcia would have the perps identified in about two seconds more. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/85 "2013-04-19T12:54:09Z")
I’m not sure taggants would have sped up finding the bombers in this case. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/86 "2013-04-19T12:55:54Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It would not narrow down the suspect list to anywhere near 5. Gunpowder/blackpowder is not dynamite. If we have a thousand suspects and less than 0.5 % of all gunpowder sales occurs at the same time and the same place then you would get less than 5 suspects, that’s basic math. Unless you are suggesting that all gunpowder sales typically take place at the same time and place, your argument makes zero sense. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/87 "2013-04-19T13:00:46Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > I’m not sure taggants would have sped up finding the bombers in this case. Only because events overtook the forensics. If the Tsarnaevs had laid low instead, then yes, of course identifying the origin of the explosive material could have helped. Yet somehow, for some reason they can’t or won’t publicly explain and defend, some people would have opposed that. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/88 "2013-04-19T13:28:16Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Wait, let me get this straight. You are arguing that if we make making a bomb just a bit harder, well,\* people who are bent on bombing people will give up because it is too hard\*? > > That is fucking dumb. > > People who are determined to blow shit up will find a way to blow shit up. Well, it kinda depends on how determined they are, and the nature of that determination, doesn’t it? And that’s the point. Some will be sufficiently determined to build an untraceable bomb that they will gain sufficient skill in mixing the ingredients of gunpowder to make a bomb that’s every bit as good as if they’d bought commercial gunpowder. Some will be sufficiently determined to build a bomb, but shrug and accept the added risk of being identified after the fact that comes with using commercial gunpowder. My primary point is that these latter people exist. You don’t seem to have stated a position on this. Some, I suppose, will be sufficiently deterred to not build bombs. These are the people you’re saying don’t exist. I think they probably do, but that isn’t my real point (I’m not claiming taggants in gunpowder and ammonia-based fertilizer ingredients would keep people from building bombs; I’m saying it would help in identifying the bombers afterwards), and it’s not worth the argument to me. So I’m not sure whether we have a meaningful disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/89 "2013-04-19T13:47:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Also lets not forget that taggents were inside dynamite. Whats to say that they couldnt be filtered/removed from powder? The quantities of taggants that would be necessary are so small that they would need some pretty specialized knowledge to do it. It probably could not be done without ruining the powder. Even if they could be removed, every barrier to making easy explosives helps. If they make their own gunpowder, they will want to test it somehow, and that will get attention. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/90 "2013-04-19T14:02:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Dynamite =/= gunpowder. Do you have a reading disability, **Bricker**? > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m not sure how much utility there’d be in tagging all gunpowder made in the country, but it seems like a no-brainer to tag various classes of explosives that have no legitimate private civilian use outside of construction/demolition etc. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/91 "2013-04-19T14:07:06Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Actually I would support a ban or at least more restrictions on _artificial_ fertilizer. They have it banned in our state on school grounds for K to 8. There is a such thing as “natural fertilizer” which our family uses, and our family strongly believes against pesticides and artificial fertilizer. We have been doing everything in our lawn naturally for years now. That shit (no pun intended) only works on a very small scale such as in your yard. It’s just not possible to grow enough food for everyone at a cost that they can afford without using modern synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. And, if used right, the synthetic chemicals (pesticides in particular) can be safer than the “natural” alternatives- applying the exact amount of the right pesticide for a particular pest can be much more targeted and have less environmental impact than using relatively large quantities of somewhat less effective “natural” pesticides. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/92 "2013-04-19T14:35:45Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > If we have a thousand suspects and less than 0.5 % of all gunpowder sales occurs at the same time and the same place then you would get less than 5 suspects, that’s basic math. Unless you are suggesting that all gunpowder sales typically take place at the same time and place, your argument makes zero sense. You wouldn’t know _when_ any hypothetical suspects bought it, and likely wouldn’t have any identification of the suspects unless you require each and every purchase of anything containing gunpwder to be recorded with photo ID. Sutff from the same huge batches would be sold across half the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/93 "2013-04-19T14:50:10Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Do you have a reading disability, **Bricker**? Not at all. Obviously the distinction between gunpowder and high explosives is clear to you. I made the comment to highlight the distinction to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![what\_do\_I\_type\_here](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a5b964/32.png) [@what\_do\_I\_type\_here](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/what_do_I_type_here)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/94 "2013-04-19T14:50:53Z")
I have dozens of pounds of gunpowder laying around for reloading and black powder shooting. Most of it was purchased years ago (gunpowder basically has a infinite shelf life). If I decided to construct a bomb, how would a ‘taggant’ help law enforcement find me, if the gunpowder was bought half a decade ago? You’re horrifically stupid. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/95 "2013-04-19T15:16:50Z")
> [@what\_do\_I\_type\_here](#): > > I have dozens of pounds of gunpowder laying around for reloading and black powder shooting. Most of it was purchased years ago (gunpowder basically has a infinite shelf life). If I decided to construct a bomb, how would a ‘taggant’ help law enforcement find me, if the gunpowder was bought half a decade ago? You’re horrifically stupid. Ah yes, the old “it won’t take care of every last situation, so it’s a stupid idea” fallacy. Good to see you - you’re holding up well after all these years. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/96 "2013-04-19T15:18:34Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > You wouldn’t know _when_ any hypothetical suspects bought it, and likely wouldn’t have any identification of the suspects unless you require each and every purchase of anything containing gunpwder to be recorded with photo ID. Sutff from the same huge batches would be sold across half the United States. No matter. As long as only 0.5% of the gun powder supply has that taggant, you’ve cut your suspects by 99.5%. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/97 "2013-04-19T15:38:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ah yes, the old “it won’t take care of every last situation, so it’s a stupid idea” fallacy. Good to see you - you’re holding up well after all these years. Not the objection, fool. The objection is: it would take care of so few situations that it has no practical utility. But you don’t know this, because to you, all things that go “boom” are the same mysterious and scary substance. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/98 "2013-04-19T15:43:15Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > This taggants thing sounds like a complicated issue. Before I make up my mind on where I stand, I am going to have to review the full list of remarks made by both Hitler and Lenin on the subject. Hitler made the Jews wear yellow badges. Now liberals want gunpowder to wear chemical badges. Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/99 "2013-04-19T16:19:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The objection is: it would take care of so few situations that it has no practical utility. Leaving aside the fact that you have no fucking idea how many murders it would help solve, Counselor: Just how many unsolved \*murder \*cases do you think society should accept in order to avoid even the slightest bit of inconvenience to a few hobbyists? > [@](#): > > But you don’t know this, because to you, all things that go “boom” are the same mysterious and scary substance. Evidence right there that an adult-level answer cannot be expected of you. But we can still hope, forlornly though it may be. Meanwhile, this appears to be yet another case of “This is something the Dumbocraps might be for, so I have to be against it”, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/100 "2013-04-19T16:35:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that you have no fucking idea how many murders it would help solve… Given what **Smiling Bandit** said in his post above: > [@](#): > > Well, the bigger issue is whether it would do any good. Gunpowder is made in massive quantities; in order to be tagged usefully, exacting records must be kept of all batches everywhere (some of which could be quite small and localized), and these batches need to be usefully connected to possible purchasers. This is quite possible and practical with high explosives (though I have doubts about its usefulness). But with gunpowder, a large batch could be used for millions of bullets and eventual end sources. Possible purchaser records would be scattered over many states and regions and thousands of purchasers distributed over hundreds of stores. …I think we can safely say that the number of murderers who would be caught solely because a taggant was added to gunpowder would approximate zero. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031.md?page=6)