# Yet another reason to Pit the NRA - no taggants in gunpowder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031 "2013-04-18T13:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/101 "2013-04-19T16:43:53Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ah yes, the old “it won’t take care of every last situation, so it’s a stupid idea” fallacy. Good to see you - you’re holding up well after all these years. If you can add taggants to black powder or propellants, someone else can remove them. All that time and effort and the powder still couldn’t be traced. Visual inspection, a magnet, metal detector, using various light wave lengths, a scale, etc.. It just depends on what taggant(s) are used. It’s also dangerous to add taggants to gunpowders. Taggants alter the burn rates of the powders, especially under the high psi of firearm cartridges. Bombers only need to exceed the fracture strength of their pressure cooker/pipe bombs. A poor grade of black powder would serve their crazy azz purpose. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/102 "2013-04-19T16:49:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …Meanwhile, this appears to be yet another case of “This is something the Dumbocraps might be for, so I have to be against it”, isn’t it? What’s the point of adding taggants for identifcation purposes if those taggants can easily be removed? You still end up with powder that can’t be identified. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/103 "2013-04-19T16:49:50Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > I think we can safely say that the number of murderers who would be caught solely because a taggant was added to gunpowder would approximate zero. “Solely”? :dubious: OK, class, who can identify the fallacy here? Johnny? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/104 "2013-04-19T16:51:02Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What’s the point of adding taggants for identifcation purposes if those taggants can easily be removed? Didn’t you just finish explaining how it _wouldn’t_ be easy? Got any _constructive_ proposals for us, kiddo? ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/105 "2013-04-19T16:50:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that you have no fucking idea how many murders it would help solve, Counselor: Just how many unsolved \*murder \*cases do you think society should accept in order to avoid even the slightest bit of inconvenience to a few hobbyists? When referring to the acceptable quantity of unsolved murder cases as an argument for mandatory taggants, I’m unsure how you can keep aside the issue of how any such cases the proposed policy would help solve. Were that number zero then appealing to unsolved cases feels pointless to me; if nonzero but sufficiently small, then we should discuss cost/benefit tradeoffs rather than emotively appealing to the aggregate quantity of unsolved murder cases. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/106 "2013-04-19T16:55:49Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > nonzero but sufficiently small OK, hotshot, what do \*you \*consider a “sufficiently small” number of unsolved murders? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/107 "2013-04-19T17:00:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Solely”? :dubious: > > OK, class, who can identify the fallacy here? Johnny? No fallacy. Those are the only cases where adding the taggent would matter. If the murder case can be solved using other clues, then adding the taggent provided no additional law enforcement benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/108 "2013-04-19T17:10:17Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Some will be sufficiently determined to build an untraceable bomb that they will gain sufficient skill in mixing the ingredients of gunpowder to make a bomb that’s every bit as good as if they’d bought commercial gunpowder. Some will be sufficiently determined to build a bomb, but shrug and accept the added risk of being identified after the fact that comes with using commercial gunpowder. My primary point is that these latter people exist. I was previously looking at this as a deterrence policy, but I suspect you’re right; some people will accept the risk of identification and use commercial, tagged gunpowder, facilitating their eventual capture. I do see at least one possible confounding issue: those who accept the risk (or who aren’t aware of the risk) are likely to be less careful in ways that could make apprehending them easier anyway. I’d definitely be interested in reading a detailed cost/benefit analysis should one exist. (Anyway, I very much doubt that taggants would be an effective deterrent. To be so deterred an individual would have to be willing to construct and plant a bomb, but not willing enough to make use of a few hours and a $70 ball grinder. Such attacks are so rare that the other costs must be quite high — taggants feel trivial in comparison.) ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/109 "2013-04-19T17:12:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > OK, hotshot, what do \*you \*consider a “sufficiently small” number of unsolved murders? I dunno, less than a million? I’m not really being facetious. At some point it becomes an epidemic and throwing everything at a problem is all you can do, but if a policy costs 10 trillion dollars and saves one life we’re probably doing it wrong. The rest needs a cost/benefit analysis. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/110 "2013-04-19T17:13:24Z")
You’re really having trouble with identifying rather than evading the central issue, aren’t you? What are the costs and benefits of a human life? Or of a murderer going free? Your choice of username does suggest a difficulty with more esoteric concepts such as morality or society or responsibility, one must notice. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/111 "2013-04-19T17:16:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not the objection, fool. The objection is: it would take care of so few situations that it has no practical utility. But you don’t know this, because to you, all things that go “boom” are the same mysterious and scary substance. Hey, I can tell you what you’re thinking too. You look in the mirror and see Antonin Scalia as he used to be, back when he could actually think. The rest of us look at you and see Antonin Scalia as the loudmouthed bozo he is now. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/112 "2013-04-19T17:38:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Didn’t you just finish explaining how it _ **wouldn’t** _ be easy? > > Got any _constructive_ proposals for us, kiddo? Wrong, I explained how easy it **would be** to remove any taggants. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/113 "2013-04-19T17:43:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Hey, I can tell you what you’re thinking too. You look in the mirror and see Antonin Scalia as he used to be, back when he could actually think. **The rest of us** look at you and see Antonin Scalia as the loudmouthed bozo he is now. Who is “the rest of us” and who gave you permission to speak for anyone else? Adding taggants to black powder is a waste of time and money because taggants can easily be removed from black powder. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/114 "2013-04-19T17:51:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re really having trouble with identifying rather than evading the central issue, aren’t you? What are the costs and benefits of a human life? Or of a murderer going free? That’s a point of contention, as I’m sure you’re aware, but one could go about it any number of ways. At a rough and terribly simple first pass, you could assess the cost of a murderer going free as some combination of: the additional damage he’d cause while free; the cost of police resources in a continued search; the economic value of justice to the citizenry (such as how much people would be willing to pay for a murderer to be locked up). This sort of literature feels a little ad hoc, I readily admit, but without any metrics we’re lost — we have no context for making judgments. > [@](#): > > Your choice of username does suggest a difficulty with more esoteric concepts such as morality or society or responsibility, one must notice. You mean my username, which _openly mocks followers of Ayn Rand_? Are you capable of contributing to a discussion which is not openly, snidely hostile of anyone with whom you disagree? Grow a soul, asshole. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/115 "2013-04-19T17:54:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re really having trouble with identifying rather than evading the central issue, aren’t you? What are the costs and benefits of a human life? Or of a murderer going free? > > Your choice of username does suggest a difficulty with more esoteric concepts such as morality or society or responsibility, one must notice. I don’t believe it servers any useful purpose to chastise usernames (especially after an elvis impersonator has been detained for sending ricin to Congress and the Whitehouse). :rolleyes: These bombers intended to injure and murder as many people as possible. That was their primary objective. I’m sure they believed they had legitimate reasons for doing so but they’re crazy so their reasons are suspect. They had many options for delivering death and destruction. They chose to use pressure cooker pipe bombs but could just have easily driven a truck down the sidewalk or mixed some kind of posionous gas and released it into the crowd. Maybe fertilizer and fuel oil? That doesn’t have taggants in it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/116 "2013-04-19T17:59:16Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > That’s a point of contention, as I’m sure you’re aware, but one could go about it any number of ways. Pick one and do it, for once. You’ve been insistent on dismissing any such esoteric concept as morality as relevant to the discussion, but only, Randianly, insisting on some sort of cold cost-benefit analysis instead. Well, do it then. Cut the crap and stand for something, for once in your life. > [@](#): > > You mean my username, which _openly mocks followers of Ayn Rand_? Someone who acts like one is now claiming to \*mock \*them? Srsly? ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/117 "2013-04-19T18:17:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If you can add taggants to black powder or propellants, someone else can remove them. All that time and effort and the powder still couldn’t be traced. And you can file the serial number off a gun. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that’s the closest comparison we have. Would adding taggants be significantly more expensive than the machinery that etches serial numbers onto firearms? Would tracking taggants by lot, location, and buyer be significantly more challenging than doing the same with serial numbers? Would removing taggants be significantly easier than irreparably defacing a firearm serial number? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/118 "2013-04-19T18:25:36Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Bear in mind that prospective policy need only affect the behavior of individuals at the margin. That seems to be **RTFirefly** ’s argument — a policy (such as adding taggants to gunpowder or its ingredients) needn’t be drastic or persuade every potential bomber. It also presumes the “individuals on the margin” are aware that taggants are, or may be, present, in whatever gunpowder they purchase (as opposed to steal). ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/119 "2013-04-19T18:28:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Cut the crap and stand for something, for once in your life. What the hell? You’re being incoherent. What does this have to do with me taking a stand on something? Are you suggesting that I form an opinion about the policy in question, despite not knowing how much it’d cost or how effective it’d be? Or what? > [@](#): > > You’ve been insistent on dismissing any such esoteric concept as morality as relevant to the discussion Where in the world did you get that idea? Nowhere did I dismiss morality — frankly, in my view it’d be immoral to implement a policy without determining whether its effects are likely to outweigh its costs (in the mind of those governed). Would you suggest that the government spend $10,000,000,000,000 to save the life of one cancer-ridden 90 year old with late-stage Alzheimers? If not, then you agree with me in principle. (Otherwise you’re insane.) > [@](#): > > but only, Randianly, insisting on some sort of cold cost-benefit analysis instead. A follower of Rand wouldn’t be calling for cost/benefit analysis, he’d be saying that any such government intervention is wrong in principle. > [@](#): > > Someone who acts like one is now claiming to \*mock \*them? Dude, if you think “we should try to understand as deeply as possible how we allocate our limited resources” is Rand-like, then I’m not sure what to think. You seem desperate for reasons to attack anyone who disagrees with you. Are you mentally unstable? My girlfriend is a psychiatric social worker, she may be able to find some resources in your area, recommend a therapist. (I suppose I’m just amused that you understood the “Randroid” reference, but were unaware that it was coined as — and has remained for decades — a pejorative term.) ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031/120 "2013-04-19T18:33:24Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Would tracking taggants by lot, location, and buyer be significantly more challenging than doing the same with serial numbers? The answer to that is yes, by orders of magnitude. Think of the logistics involved in tracking every gunpowder, ammunition, and fireworks sale made in the US (most of which are not tracked right now). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-reason-to-pit-the-nra-no-taggants-in-gunpowder/656031.md?page=7)