# Yet another SWAT raid death and no charges filed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278 "2011-01-20T02:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/201 "2011-01-21T20:59:53Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > …If you’re going to tell me that homeowners must immediately relinquish that right upon hearing the magic word “Police!” then the right to defend your home is utterly useless, not based on the legislature altering the law, but based on Police methods. I have a problem accepting that anyone needs to defend their home from the police. Why do you say that? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/202 "2011-01-21T21:08:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I have a problem accepting that anyone needs to defend their home from the police. Why do you say that? I think you’re being intentionally dense. Do people have the right to defend their home from armed criminals who shout “Police!” but actually aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/203 "2011-01-21T21:11:40Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I have a problem accepting that anyone needs to defend their home from the police. Why do you say that? Unless you’re being deliberately obtuse, the entire point made by multiple people is that the actions of police on a no knock warrant mimmick those of a team of criminals looking to break in, mess up your stuff, and kill you. Not so coincidently, the results under both scenarios were identical. So if a person is allowed to defend himself against home invaders, but cannot nor should not defend himself against police there lawfully who look and act like home invaders, what is a reasonable person to do? Quick now. Post an answer in five seconds or you’ll be shot. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/204 "2011-01-21T21:12:40Z")
Too late. You got shot. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/205 "2011-01-21T21:14:38Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Too late. You got shot. Understandable, he might have had a sword. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/206 "2011-01-21T21:20:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I think you’re being intentionally dense. Do people have the right to defend their home from armed criminals who shout “Police!” but actually aren’t? What does that have to do with the facts here? IANAL and certainly not qualified to answer a question regarding what is permissible in that respect. The facts are that the people who yelled “police” were in fact, the police. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/207 "2011-01-21T21:25:25Z")
Do people have the right to use force to defend their homes or not? The fact that the cops had a warrant to break into his home is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/208 "2011-01-21T21:29:29Z")
And fuck, it isn’t like Blair came out with a gun and started shooting. He was holding a golf club and was gunned down on sight. Watch the video again. The cops shot him on sight. He didn’t have any warning, he didn’t have a chance to threaten anyone. He was shot on sight by a cop who plays too much COD. I guess all it takes to justify shooting you is to be standing up in your own home when the cops break in. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/209 "2011-01-21T21:38:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Do people have the right to use force to defend their homes or not? I’ll say it again. \* IANAL and certainly not qualified to answer a question regarding what is permissible in that respect.\* I’d suggest you contact the authorities in your area and ask what your rights are in that regard. > [@Lemur866](#): > > The fact that the cops had a warrant to break into his home is irrelevant. [/quote] Is that your opinion or am I missing a legal principle here? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/210 "2011-01-21T21:41:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I think you’re being intentionally dense. Do people have the right to defend their home from armed criminals who shout “Police!” but actually aren’t? Does that ever happen? Two guys broke into a condo two floors down from mine two days ago. Popped the door off the hinges and busted in a grabbed stuff. No yelling police. Of course, the lady at home hid in a closet and decided to call her boyfriend, who called a friend, who called his wife(back in my building), who finally called the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/211 "2011-01-21T21:42:32Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Do people have the right to use force to defend their homes or not? > > The fact that the cops had a warrant to break into his home is irrelevant. IANAL, but yes, you do have a right to use force to defend yourself and your home. However, the existence of the search warrant is relevant. If Blair reasonably believed that the people breaking into his house were not police officers, or that they did not have a lawful reason to break and enter his house, and if Blair reasonably felt threatened by the police officers, then he would have a lawful excuse for killing the police officers. And the fact that the police yelled “Police search warrant” is relevant, but not conclusive about what is reasonable: for example, if Blair had heard that drug gangs were in the habit of yelling like that when breaking into rival drug dealers’ houses, he might reasonably think – in the darkness, with a torch shining on him so that he could not see the police officer clearly – that it might be a rival drug gang. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/212 "2011-01-21T21:43:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’ll say it again. \* IANAL and certainly not qualified to answer a question regarding what is permissible in that respect.\* I’d suggest you contact the authorities in your area and ask what your rights are in that regard. And do it within five seconds, or you’re dead. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/213 "2011-01-21T21:47:04Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I have a problem accepting that anyone needs to defend their home from the police. Why do you say that? It’s impossible to dumb down this concept any further, so I guess you’ll just have to stay confused. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/214 "2011-01-21T21:48:48Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Does that ever happen? Snopes says it’s true: > **[Should You Call #77 or 112 to Contact the Police in an Emergency?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/call-112-police-emergency/)** > > College student evades cop-impersonating rapist by dialing #77 or 112 on her cell phone. True story? Good advice? Or is it neither? Admittedly I’ve never heard of criminals pretending to be a SWAT team, but I figure it’s only a matter of time. Also, Kramer did something similar on an episode of Seinfeld. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/215 "2011-01-21T21:54:31Z")
Missed edit window: [http://www.theagitator.com/2008/06/03/criminals-dressed-as-cops-ctd/](http://www.theagitator.com/2008/06/03/criminals-dressed-as-cops-ctd/) So it does happen. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/216 "2011-01-21T21:56:44Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Missed edit window:. Too bad it wasn’t holding a golf club. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/217 "2011-01-21T22:04:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Too bad it wasn’t holding a golf club. Hah! Finding more: > **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/218 "2011-01-21T22:12:28Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Hah! > > Finding more: > [ItemFix - Social Video Factory](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9fc_1279239950) If we’re going to make up facts for this case, let’s get more creative. I say we make the dead guy a federal judge with a blindfolded Justice statue in his hand, defending an orphanage being stormed by a tribe of cannibals on Harleys, with poison darts yelling “Mmmmm dinner”! ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/219 "2011-01-21T23:27:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [QUOTE=Claverhouse] > Here’s another thought: after blocking all exits, knock on the door and wait for them to answer, if nothing happens then break in. > > At worst they might begin shooting, or start swallowing all the evidence, but 99% of the time people just answer the door when someone knocks. 99% of all people? Sure. 99% of people involved in illicit drug operations. No. [/QUOTE] And if they escaped or somehow disposed of the evidence whilst stuck in a room with police outside, that would be preferable to killing them. And remarkable tribute to their ingenuity. Really, they are not stone-cold killers being sought on the warrant; and even if they were, tomorrow is another day. > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > [QUOTE=Claverhouse] > Here’s another thought: after blocking all exits, knock on the door and wait for them to answer, if nothing happens then break in. Good Christ, that would be a bad idea. I hate “no-knock warrants”, but all that is going to do is set up a standoff. Somebody almost ALWAYS dies in a standoff. “Block all exits” and yell at him? Is that your plan? [/QUOTE] Strangely enough this was standing operating mode for British policemen from the early 19th century through most of the 20th century. A pair of ill-paid, and unarmed except for a wooden truncheon ( for the first few years they were issued with cutlasses, until the politicians realised that armed police might do more damage than was prevented ), policemen were expected to execute any warrant, whether grabbing hooligans in the slums or bicycling to a remote mansion in the middle of the night to arrest a crooked company promoter — they may have allowed the stricken financier a moment to get a vital paper, and then heard a shot from the next room, but the fellow wouldn’t bother to use his gun on them cos if he had, he’d have swung. The major exception to this was Sidney Street, where Churchill brought up artillery to arrest two anarchists ( today’s _terr’ists_ ); but a valuable lesson was learned: not to let Churchill plan anything. I had expected that the American authorities had learnt at least one thing from Waco: which is, if people have nowhere to go, you can sit back and wait. > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > ..But c’mon buddy. It ain’t murder. It was an ill conceived and poorly executed execution of a warrant. If you want to talk about how “no knock” warrants are unconstitutional, I’ll back you up. I don’t like that shit at all. But what we have his is an unfortunately legal warrant executed very, VERY badly. It ain’t murder. Killing someone who has committed no offence is not murder ? Die and Learn… > [@Lemur866](#): > > As I’m sure you’re aware, the cops sometimes raid the wrong address. They get false information from snitches. They raid 222b when they’re supposed to raid 222a. People come over to borrow cups of sugar, or crack. They’d be out of luck if they tried it at 221b Baker Street. Though there was coke there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/220 "2011-01-21T23:41:39Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > What does that have to do with the facts here? IANAL and certainly not qualified to answer a question regarding what is permissible in that respect. The facts are that the people who yelled “police” were in fact, the police. And if they’d been crooks who yelled police? How was the murder victim to tell the difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=12)