# Yet another SWAT raid death and no charges filed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278 "2011-01-20T02:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/281 "2011-01-24T06:10:42Z")
Or it reminds me of sarcasm… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/282 "2011-01-24T13:56:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s pretty clear from the context of the article that they knew before the warrant. They had the house under observation for at least some time, and the warrant was issued the same day as the raid. Besides, we are looking at two options here: > > (1) They knew she didn’t live there and lied. > > (2) They swore that she lived there while having the house under observation. > > I have no idea why you insist on clawing for the small possibility that they were merely grossly incompetent instead of lying. I see your “context” and raise you “direct information from the author.” After I read this post of yours, I contacted Erin Abernathy, the Salt Lake Tribune reporter who authored the article in question. I asked her: > [@](#): > > \>\> One detail is unclear to me, though – you mention that police > \>\> learned at > \> some point that Melanie Chournos had moved out of Blair’s house. > \>\> > \>\> If you know, precisely when did police learn this? Before or after > \>\> they > \> prepared the affidavit in support of their search warrant? Yesterday, she responded as follows: > [@](#): > > The warrant was signed the day of the search. Immediately after the search/shooting (that night/early the next morning), SWAT officers from the task force told investigators they knew Melanie had moved out. Those particular SWAT officers did not sign the affidavit – the lead investigator did. > > I cannot comment on the how likely it would be that the SWAT officers knew of Melanie’s departure without the lead investigator knowing it. > > There is no way for me to tell whether the affidavit was actually drafted earlier. I only can see when the signatures were dated. So there’s potentially an entire day in which the officers could have discovered that Chornous had moved out AFTER the warrant was signed. Of course, it’s also possible that they knew ahead of time, but it’s by no means a matter of certainty… the “context” of the article notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/283 "2011-01-24T16:53:12Z")
Out of as-yet-unsatisfied curiosity, did the police think Chornous was potentially violent and/or a major link in the local drug supply chain? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/284 "2011-01-24T19:44:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Out of as-yet-unsatisfied curiosity, did the police think … a major link in the local drug supply chain? There are no small players in the Vast Octopus of Crime that is Drugs. You just have to keep cutting off one soon-to-be-regenerated tentacle at a time until there is no possible bad guy left alive. And then you wearily start over again. In the City that Never Sleeps there are No Innocents. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/285 "2011-01-24T23:14:37Z")
Nite Owl: What happened to the American dream? The Comedian: It came true! You’re lookin’ at it. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/286 "2011-01-25T17:46:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I watched the video, and heard at least five iterationsof “Police! Search warrant!” prior to the shots bieng fired. > > It’s not clear to me why you feel that the police were not justified. The man heard, “Police, search warrant,” repeated multiple times, but instead of standing with his hands up he adopted an aggressive stance. In the dark, with seconds to decide, there’s no good way of knowing if the man was armed with something more deadly than a golf club. > > So why did the police go with with such force? Because based on many examples, people that store large quantities of illicit narcotics also keep means to defend their contraband. This, in my view, was a bad shoot. The cop that shot him in my opinion KNEW that was a golf club and shot him anyway. The time it takes for a trained operator to recognize and neutralize a threat is in line with the way this operator acted. He saw the man standing there with a golf club, assessed the threat said “drop it” and before the person wielding the golf club could react, less than a second, especially if he was frozen with fear, the person was shot. Unacceptable. It’s manslaughter IMO, although Utah law may differ. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/287 "2011-01-26T17:41:28Z")
I was all set to come down on the side of “get the bad drug dealer”. But as someone else said, the yelling was all muffled (could have been bad camera/speaker issues), and 3 seconds for a person having just woken up to figure out what was going on and to put down the weapon? AND it wasn’t even the person that the warrant was for? I’m a fan of cops protecting us and all, but this was wrong and I hope they sue the pants off of them. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/288 "2011-01-28T08:58:53Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Does that ever happen? Yes, as is currently being discussed in the thread regarding the murder of 9 year old Brisenia Flores > **[News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines](https://www.aol.com/news/)** > > Get breaking news and the latest headlines on business, entertainment, politics, world news, tech, sports, videos and much more from AOL > [@](#): > > Anti-immigration militia leader Shawna Forde is on trial in Pima County Superior Court in Tucson on two counts of first-degree murder in the home invasion deaths of Brisenia Flores and her father, Raul “Junior” Flores. If convicted, Forde, 43, could face the death penalty… > > …Brisenia’s mother, Gina Gonzalez, testified Tuesday that people posing as law enforcement officers came into the family’s home in the early morning hours and then pumped several bullets into her husband, killing him. Gonzalez was hit in the shoulder and leg and slumped to the floor. > > She said she was lying wounded on the floor, pretending to be dead, when her young daughter – who had been asleep – confronted one of the attackers, identified by authorities as Bush. > > “Why did you shoot my dad? Why did you shoot my mom?” Brisenia asked, her mother testified, according to the Los Angeles Times. > > “He’s all out of bullets by then because he’s used them on me and Junior. So he loads the gun right in front of her,” Gonzalez said, according to KOLD-TV, the CBS affiliate in Tucson. > > “I can hear it happening. I can hear her telling him to ‘please don’t shoot me,’” the sobbing mother said. > > Despite Brisenia’s plea, the gunman shot the little girl twice, Gonzalez said. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/289 "2011-01-28T09:27:35Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > This, in my view, was a bad shoot. The cop that shot him in my opinion KNEW that was a golf club and shot him anyway. The time it takes for a trained operator to recognize and neutralize a threat is in line with the way this operator acted. He saw the man standing there with a golf club, assessed the threat said “drop it” and before the person wielding the golf club could react, less than a second, especially if he was frozen with fear, the person was shot. Unacceptable. It’s manslaughter IMO, although Utah law may differ. “In my opinion,” is a good qualifier, since there is no evidence on the record for you to reach these conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/290 "2011-01-28T10:10:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “In my opinion,” is a good qualifier, since there is no evidence on the record for you to reach these conclusions. Just as well then that he states “in my opinion”, right at the start to rather clearly indicate that it’s an opinion. Seriously, what fucking level of wibbling sophistry are you attempting in this thread? And of course there’s evidence for him to reach that conclusion - there’s videos, articles on the background, and huge amount of various cited discussion on this event. Whether that evidence supports a person reaching a particular conclusion is a matter of opinion. You know, like he fucking states it is in nice clear letters right at the fucking start. And indeed, as you fail to state when opining that “there is no evidence”. There clearly is, it’s just that in your opinion that evidence is insufficient. And on the subject of your opions, in your first post you muse that “It’s not clear to me why you feel that the police were not justified” in shooting a man who was: a) armed only with a golf club b) not actually the person the police were looking for c) woken abruptly in the middle of the night by a door being smashed in by shouting people claiming to be police. d) shot without any direct warning or request to put the club down by a policeman a safe distance away. Which part do you think of the scenario required the policeman to shoot him? What offence was he guilty of that this was a justified killing? As posted just above, there have been recent examples of people breaking into a house, posing to be police, and killing innocents. Just how do you reconcile the reasonable desire to defend your own home with the police being “justified” in shooting you if you attempt to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/291 "2011-01-28T11:01:01Z")
How the hell would you defend yourself from anyone barging into your house in full SWAT gear with a golf club? If people armed like that break in, either a) they aren’t police, and your golf club won’t save you if they intend to kill you b) they are police, and brandishing a club might get you shot I’m not saying that what the police did was anything approaching reasonable - my only point is that when heavily armed people come in shouting police, you should probably drop the golf club whether they’re police or not, because keeping it it seems to present downside with no upside. That is, if you have enough time to make that call - I’m making no claims that this guy did. But, if anyone is considering holding on to the golf club because the large group of dudes with body armor and a crap load of guns may not be police - it’s probably a bad choice. Drop it, and hope that they’re cops - or get your AK and jump behind your barricade. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/292 "2011-01-28T11:28:51Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > How the hell would you defend yourself from anyone barging into your house in full SWAT gear with a golf club? Because, honestly, in the middle of the night when the door gets kicked in, you’ll know as soon as you hear the sound what the intruders are armed with. And should you have failed on that basic ability, you certainly wouldn’t for example, leap from your bed terrified and confused, grab whatever comes to hand and run into the hall to see what’s happening. But, in the inconceivable event that you’ve somehow failed on both of the above, you certainly wouldn’t further compound the error by freezing in groggy confusion when someone shines a light in your face, or being unable in your half asleep/half terrified daze to work out exactly who is shining the torch in your eyes, or not dropping the club within a second of this happening. Because obviously, if you were stupid enough to act in such a completely unreasonable way, the police are completely fucking justified in taking you down. Fucker had it coming. People like him make me sick, sick I tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/293 "2011-01-28T15:56:02Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Just as well then that he states “in my opinion”, right at the start to rather clearly indicate that it’s an opinion. Seriously, what fucking level of wibbling sophistry are you attempting in this thread? And of course there’s evidence for him to reach that conclusion - there’s videos, articles on the background, and huge amount of various cited discussion on this event. Uh huh. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > The cop that shot him in my opinion KNEW that was a golf club and shot him anyway. Specifically, which videos, articles on the background, or various cited discussion supports this conclusion? Specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/294 "2011-01-28T15:59:25Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > b) not actually the person the police were looking for > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > AND it wasn’t even the person that the warrant was for? Repeat after me: it was a search warrant. There was no “person they were looking for.” It was a search warrant. This point has only been made a few times in the thread so I can see how you might have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/295 "2011-01-28T16:36:28Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > How the hell would you defend yourself from anyone barging into your house in full SWAT gear with a golf club? First and foremost, to retain the element of surprise, resist yelling “FORE!” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/296 "2011-01-28T17:14:31Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Because, honestly, in the middle of the night when the door gets kicked in, you’ll know as soon as you hear the sound what the intruders are armed with. And should you have failed on that basic ability, you certainly wouldn’t for example, leap from your bed terrified and confused, grab whatever comes to hand and run into the hall to see what’s happening. But, in the inconceivable event that you’ve somehow failed on both of the above, you certainly wouldn’t further compound the error by freezing in groggy confusion when someone shines a light in your face, or being unable in your half asleep/half terrified daze to work out exactly who is shining the torch in your eyes, or not dropping the club within a second of this happening. > > Because obviously, if you were stupid enough to act in such a completely unreasonable way, the police are completely fucking justified in taking you down. > > Fucker had it coming. People like him make me sick, sick I tell you. I think you missed the part of my post where I said the police weren’t even close to reasonable and dropping the club would be the right thing to _if_ you had enough time to decide. That’s a big if. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/297 "2011-01-28T17:15:43Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > First and foremost, to retain the element of surprise, resist yelling “FORE!” Oh man, that would be tough. If I’m going down fighting off a SWAT team with a golf club, I at least want to earn points for style. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/298 "2011-01-28T17:56:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Repeat after me: it was a search warrant. There was no “person they were looking for.” It was a search warrant. > > This point has only been made a few times in the thread so I can see how you might have missed it. > [@Bricker](#): > > Repeat after me: it was a search warrant. There was no “person they were looking for.” It was a search warrant. > > This point has only been made a few times in the thread so I can see how you might have missed it. Ah, further fucking wibbling and sophistry it is then. Seriously, you are a worthless cretin sometimes, do you know that? So is it your contention that shooting a person who was clearly no threat to the police is justified because there was a warrant to search a house where he resided? If not, could you perhaps advise which of the other factors you feel was the reason he had to be killed? 1. Because he was holding a golf club 2. Because he came through to see who was smashing the door down, or 3. Because he did not drop the golf club the moment the policeman shone a torch at him, even though there was no instruction for him to do so I’d love to know which of the above was the offence that required his death. And, as requested previously, and with reference to the recent example posted, of people breaking into a house, posing to be police, and killing innocents: just how do you reconcile the reasonable desire to defend your own home with the police being “justified” in shooting you if you attempt to do so? It would of course be downright refreshing if you tried to actually answer sincerely and honestly, but that really isn’t likely, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/299 "2011-01-28T17:59:42Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I think you missed the part of my post where I said the police weren’t even close to reasonable and dropping the club would be the right thing to _if_ you had enough time to decide. That’s a big if. Yup indeed. In the circumstances here though, the golf club would have been just fine - because really the sort of ninja combat readiness you’d require to work out what the deal was under those circumstances before Dibble had a chance to shoot would also mean you’re qualified to dish out John Woo levels of slowmo beatdown. Preferably whilst a dove flaps slowly across the room for poignant contrast. In a stylish manner, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/300 "2011-01-28T18:30:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Repeat after me: it was a search warrant. There was no “person they were looking for.” It was a search warrant. > > This point has only been made a few times in the thread so I can see how you might have missed it. Does a search warrant give the cops the authority to shoot on sight everyone at the residence to be searched? The fact that the cops had a warrant to search the house is irrelevant, counselor. The fact is, they busted into his house, and shot him on sight, then screamed for his prostrate corpse to get down on the floor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=16)