# Yet another SWAT raid death and no charges filed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278 "2011-01-20T02:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/341 "2011-01-31T04:38:08Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Do you not think that a PLANNED breakin in the middle of the night pushes some additional responsability onto the system and the SWAT officers? What if an officer was shot in that confusion? Would the resident be accused? I bet he would. But it’s OK to shoot down a confused resident. > > This kind of BS needs to stop now, or at the very least, the police need to be held responsible for crimes that they commit when they execute such drastic actions. To your questions / statements: Yes. That would be bad. Probably, unless he was dead. I’d bet you’re right. It’s not OK to shoot down a confused resident. Yes, people getting shot needs to stop. And, yes, police need to held responsible for crimes they commit. None of this changes the fact that not every killing lands into the 2 neat little categories of “murder” and “the guy needed to be killed.” There are other possibilities, and, therefore, any argument based on the premise that a killing must be one or the other is flawed - regardless of the situation in which the argument is applied. It is very easy to reach the right conclusion for the wrong reasons - that doesn’t make the reasoning valid. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/342 "2011-01-31T06:29:09Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I watched the video. > > No charges should be filed - it was justified. The police clearly identified themselves and the bozo is standing there holding a weapon. I’d have shot him, too. I watched the video. The cop who shot him should be executed without a trial - it was unjustified. The police did not give him an opportunity to surrender, and a golf club is not threat in that situation. If I were one of those cops, I’d just shoot myself out of shame. How’d I do? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/343 "2011-01-31T14:46:00Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I watched the video. > > No charges should be filed - it was justified. The police clearly identified themselves and the bozo is standing there holding a weapon. I’d have shot him, too. Salivate a little at the prospect, did you? Or is that merely your baseline level of drool? I trust you’d have your “just like a bozo to bring a golf club to a gun fight” post-mortem tough guy wisecrack all prepped and ready. Gotta wring all the fun you can out of a “justified” shooting, after all, whenever the Old Testament God sees fit to smile upon you. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/344 "2011-01-31T15:11:11Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I watched the video. > > The cop who shot him should be executed without a trial - it was unjustified. The police did not give him an opportunity to surrender, and a golf club is not threat in that situation. If I were one of those cops, I’d just shoot myself out of shame. > > How’d I do? Fighting stupidity with stupidity is rarely a winning tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/345 "2011-02-01T04:56:46Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Fighting stupidity with stupidity is rarely a winning tactic. And you call yourself a mockerator.. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/346 "2011-02-01T05:11:20Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > And you call yourself a mockerator.. I do, and not for nothing. [sub]No really, I _pay_ to do so.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/347 "2011-02-01T09:05:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > Um, no. It’s extremely relevant to rebut the set of inferences raised by the constant repetition of the claim that they didn’t shoot, or find, the “person they were looking for.” > > So as long as people keep raising the point that the cops didn’t shoot the person they were looking for, or didn’t arrest the person they were looking for, then it’s relevant to point out that the cops were not looking for anyone – they were searching the premises for the fruits of criminal activity. > > The fact is that they lawfully served a valid search warrant on a home that was used for the packaging and distribution of narcotic drugs in violation of state law, and in the course of that action were confront by an individual brandishing a weapon, who was not an innocent bystander but well aware of the business being conducted in the home, and that individual was shot. Just one thing sir, They were searching the premises for the POSSIBLE fruits of ACCUSED criminal activity. Which the person they were shot may or may not have been aware of or responsible for… Unless of course a search warrant changes that funny thing that sits at the very basis of American justice… Dammit, I always have trouble remembering it…uhmmm…something about guilty before innocent… Uhmm errr… Aha! \*\*Innocent until proven guilty. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/348 "2011-02-02T00:45:12Z")
First, I must redact my previous statement, the words ‘drop it’ were not uttered on second listen to the video. > [@Clothahump](#): > > I watched the video. > > No charges should be filed - it was justified. The police clearly identified themselves and the bozo is standing there holding a weapon. I’d have shot him, too. It’s pretty likely that we’ve had at least similar training, even if we’ve had dissimilar experiences in the public safety/law enforcement arena, and I don’t know if you’ve got any HRE/HBT experience or training, but with the training that I’ve had with things like move-n-shoot, B&C, HRE, etc. I have a fair base of knowledge on the subject, though admittedly I’m no expert. Here’s what I DO know: -SRT/SWAT operators should be one level above the average street cop in his ability to assess a threat and choose a neutralization containment method, this guy was see spot shoot. -I understand the nature of the B&C is dynamic and perhaps there was no intent, but this was in no way, shape, fashion or form, again, in my opinion, justified. -Blair was clearly, from the video, standing deer-in-the-headlights still with the golf club cocked back. The time it takes for entry to get the door open until the shooters foot across the threshold is three to four seconds, in that time, plenty to determine the threat, Blair is shot. [QUOTE=Bricker] Specifically, which videos, articles on the background, or various cited discussion supports this conclusion? Specifically. [/QUOTE] -In that same three seconds Sgt. Burnett had discerned that: “He had some silver thing. … I thought it was a sword or something… It was silverish and thin”. Understandably, the officer thought there was a risk, yet admits that he did NOT believe that Blair was moving toward him. So maybe it was a long, thin sword or a golf club, in either case, Burnett has the advantage. Maybe he didn’t KNOW it was a golf club, maybe he THOUGHT it was a golf club. It’s almost to the point of splitting hairs. -Burnett stated further “I didn’t think about saying words. I just thought about not getting hit, or slashed or whatever.” So he knew he was not dealing with a projectile weapon and yelled only “police” and “search warrant”. Someone on the tape is heard yelling “get on the gr” insinuating that indeed, at least in the opinion of an operator on Burnett’s team, this low risk threat should be taken into custody as opposed to shot. Never was Blair given the chance to surrender. Simply yelling ‘POLICE!’ and ‘SEARCH WARRANT!’ in practical terms does not always give us the results necessary. -Further, a close analysis of the video shows the entry personnel with an entry/riot shield, which means that not only was lethal force probably unnecessary, there are ways to contain a suspect with both the shield and other less-lethal options. None of these were employed. Blair was illuminated (stunned) with high-powered weapon lights while being yelled at and then shot. It depends on Utah law, but this reaches the criminally negligent manslaughter level in my opinion. The officer was at least negligent if not reckless in his execution of this entry, causing death that was otherwise avoidable. I believe it was criminal, or at the very least could be argued so. Of course, the DA declined to prosecute, but I do hope the Blair family sues the tits off every agency that was there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/349 "2011-02-02T04:27:08Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > -In that same three seconds Sgt. Burnett had discerned that: “He had some silver thing. … I thought it was a sword or something… It was silverish and thin”. Understandably, the officer thought there was a risk, yet admits that he did NOT believe that Blair was moving toward him. So maybe it was a long, thin sword or a golf club, in either case, Burnett has the advantage. Maybe he didn’t KNOW it was a golf club, maybe he THOUGHT it was a golf club. It’s almost to the point of splitting hairs. No. There’s a huge gulf between "maybe he thought"and “he KNEW.” That difference is not a hair; it’s a log. Here’s what you started with: > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > The cop that shot him in my opinion KNEW that was a golf club and shot him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/350 "2011-02-02T04:29:34Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Just one thing sir, > > They were searching the premises for the POSSIBLE fruits of ACCUSED criminal activity. Which the person they were shot may or may not have been aware of or responsible for… > > Unless of course a search warrant changes that funny thing that sits at the very basis of American justice… > > Dammit, I always have trouble remembering it…uhmmm…something about guilty before innocent… > > Uhmm errr… > > Aha! > > \*\*Innocent until proven guilty. \*\* Those words refer to the burden of proof allocated to the prosecution at a criminal trial. It has fuck-all to do with the conduct of police during the execution of a search warrant. A person may be arrested on mere probable cause. Do you parade up and down outside the jail in your town demanding that the pre-trial detainees be released under your theory of “innocent until proven guilty?” ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/351 "2011-02-02T06:31:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. There’s a huge gulf between "maybe he thought"and “he KNEW.” That difference is not a hair; it’s a log. > > Here’s what you started with: Fair enough, it was worth a shot. Still, I think Burnett shot too quickly, Blair did not pose a significant threat to him or the entry team and did not need to die. The approach Burnett took was reckless, it could be argued criminally, and hopefully WILL be argued civilly. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/352 "2011-02-05T14:09:16Z")
I know its across the pond, however its relevant, and although rare it an happen, > **[Salford flat raided by men posing as police officers](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12372891)** > > Five men posing as police officers handcuff a man and search his flat and a pub in Greater Manchester. Now tell me about no-knock warrants, especially if the alternative is to wait a while until the suspect leaves the property on some errand. Discuss ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/353 "2011-02-06T05:19:33Z")
Tragedy and culpability aside: does anybody else find it interesting that this house (presumably) full of tweakers also had golf clubs? I bet nobody ever has to play through them. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/354 "2011-02-06T12:51:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Those words refer to the burden of proof allocated to the prosecution at a criminal trial. It has fuck-all to do with the conduct of police during the execution of a search warrant. > > A person may be arrested on mere probable cause. Do you parade up and down outside the jail in your town demanding that the pre-trial detainees be released under your theory of “innocent until proven guilty?” Did the police know who it was? Do you really truly honestly believe he posed a serious threat? Are you seriously ok with the police crash banging into a house that opening fire on the first person the appears in the doorway? What was he guilty of? What should he have done to, in your own words “save his own life”? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/355 "2011-02-07T18:45:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > - Failing to ascertain ahead of time the closest medical facility and have a rig on call I’m an EMT, and have been for the last three years. I will say that, in _most_ districts (I will not speak for all districts across the country), when a SWAT team is assembled for any reason, at least one ambulance is also dispatched, and stages somewhere in the area until the scene is secure. In the situations in which I’ve been dispatched, we stay about one block away from the scene until we’re either cancelled or told to approach. The district I tend to cover has a hospital within 10 miles of just about anywhere. Also, in a situation like the one in this thread, there’s always the possibility that a helicopter is in the area, in case a patient needs stat-flighted to the closest major trauma center (which, in my area, is about 25-30 miles away). The closest hospital is also aware of the situation, and has staff prepared in case a patient is brought in. In addition, many SWAT teams also have a paramedic that accompanies them on their missions/raids/whatever you want to call them. I’m not passing judgement on either side, as I have a bias. I work alongside cops, and, on occasion, with SWAT teams. My brother is a correctional officer, and has always wanted to be a cop. If I had to choose, I’d side with the police. I’m not trying to make an argument either way, but I thought that I might be able to offer some “behind the scenes” insight. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/356 "2011-02-08T00:55:30Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Did the police know who it was? > > Do you really truly honestly believe he posed a serious threat? > > Are you seriously ok with the police crash banging into a house that opening fire on the first person the appears in the doorway? > > What was he guilty of? > > What should he have done to, in your own words “save his own life”? And that’s the problem. He has no fucking answer for that question. He knows it, you know it, I know it. However he, and the other murder supporters, are too cowardly to admit it. An innocent man was needlessly shot for the crime being surprised by a bunch of people busting in his dwelling like invading thugs, the trigger puller was murdering thug, and **Bricker** thinks that’s just dandy. Pretty much sums up the source of the lawyer stereotype. **Bricker** would have okayed the Spanish Inquisition on account of it being legal and Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/357 "2011-02-08T01:32:13Z")
I’ll concede possibly manslaughter, but you in NO WAY can convince me that the death of this man was premeditated. I cannot believe that the cop in this instance planned from the get-go to kill this man. It was a tragic set of circumstances, yes. But not murder. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/358 "2011-02-08T01:42:42Z")
I don’t think the thinking was: “I can’t wait to get in there and shoot Bob in the head.” Or whatever his name was. I think it was more like: “I see anything even move, I’m fucking shooting it.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/359 "2011-02-09T08:22:54Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Did the police know who it was? How is that relevant? > [@](#): > > Do you really truly honestly believe he posed a serious threat? Me personally, if I had to make my best guess? No. But that’s not the standard for criminal charges. Do I believe that the facts show beyond a reasonable doubt the the cop didn’t feel he faced a serious threat? NO. > [@](#): > > Are you seriously ok with the police crash banging into a house that opening fire on the first person the appears in the doorway? OK with it? No. But that’s not the question. The question is: are criminal charges justified? No. > [@](#): > > What was he guilty of? This is pretty fucking tiresome. My advice to you is: learn to read. > [@](#): > > What should he have done to, in your own words “save his own life”? Not deal drugs, and not rent out his house in exchange for drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/360 "2011-02-09T08:25:32Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > And that’s the problem. He has no fucking answer for that question. He knows it, you know it, I know it. However he, and the other murder supporters, are too cowardly to admit it. > An innocent man was needlessly shot for the crime being surprised by a bunch of people busting in his dwelling like invading thugs, the trigger puller was murdering thug, and **Bricker** thinks that’s just dandy. Pretty much sums up the source of the lawyer stereotype. > > **Bricker** would have okayed the Spanish Inquisition on account of it being legal and Catholic. You’re not the most idiotic poster on the boards. But of the regular contributers here, you’d easily make a list of the top ten most idiotic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=19)