# Yet another SWAT raid death and no charges filed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278 "2011-01-20T02:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/21 "2011-01-20T13:36:29Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Good Christ, that would be a bad idea. I hate “no-knock warrants”, but all that is going to do is set up a standoff. Somebody almost ALWAYS dies in a standoff. As opposed to people dying in a blitz break in? Presumably anyone holing up in a house and shooting at police officers is fair game, while innocent people like this man get killed before a “WTF?” had the time to form in his head, by bungling, trigger happy police officers. I fail to see how this antics jibe with protecting the citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/22 "2011-01-20T13:47:12Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Good Christ, that would be a bad idea. I hate “no-knock warrants”, but all that is going to do is set up a standoff. Somebody almost ALWAYS dies in a standoff. Well, when a standoff happens, it’s almost always because the person is, in fact, an armed criminal. The people we are concerned about protecting with this change in tactics are the non-criminals who would open the door and let the police in. So your assertion that someone almost always dies might be true, but would tend to apply only to armed criminals prepared to resist – a class of persons _already_ more-or-less doomed by no-knock SWAT incursions. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The whole problem here is that judges allow these sorts of warrants. They approve them with full knowledge that a heavily armed SWAT team is going to blast into a home that may or may not be defended by men with guns. The Supreme Court’s recent “clarification” of the Second Amendment implies that the law should _expect_ homes to be defended by people with guns. It should be a default assumption. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/23 "2011-01-20T14:22:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The whole problem here is that judges allow these sorts of warrants. They approve them with full knowledge that a heavily armed SWAT team is going to blast into a home that may or may not be defended by men with guns. It’s a highly volatile situation, constructed in its entirety by allowing a no knock warrant. Couldn’t agree more except that that isn’t the whole problem. Part of the problem is that we create and fund SWAT teams in the first place. When you have such an expensive tool the temptation is to use it. In this case one of the soldiers (yes, soldiers) over stepped and I suppose he should be punished. But, it was the people who ordered those soldiers to attack a person’s house who should be held responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/24 "2011-01-20T14:38:32Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Here’s another thought: after blocking all exits, knock on the door and wait for them to answer, if nothing happens _then_ break in. > > At worst they might begin shooting, or start swallowing all the evidence, but 99% of the time people just answer the door when someone knocks. 99% of all people? Sure. 99% of people involved in illicit drug operations. No. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Are criminals highly adept at flushing evidence? Yes. The destruction of evidence is one of the primary reasons no-knock entries are approved. Knocking and waiting to see if the residents will open the door is simply an invitation to literally flush contraband down the commode. > [@thirdname](#): > > They shot him less than 3 seconds after they opened the door. You think someone can break into your house in the middle of the night, dressed in black, shining a bright light in your face, and you can figure out if it’s really a cop, react to that and put down a weapon in less than three seconds? > > These raids create conditions where the natural actions of most people are considered enough to justify shooting. People tend to arm themselves when somebody is banging their door down in the middle of the night. Cops barge in, someone presents a weapon and they shoot them. Dogs tend to bark and act aggressive towards intruders. Cops barge in, the dogs bark and maybe run at them, so they shoot them. Not sure how dogs got into this picture. The man had enough time to hear, “Police, search warrant,” and react accordingly. Dogs obviously would not be expected to react with surrender in those circumstances. > [@](#): > > Oh, and the search warrant wasn’t on him, it was on his roommate. And the “large quantities of illicit narcotics” was an empty meth vial and some paraphernalia. The search warrant was on a residence in which he lived. And the requisite standard for a search warrant is probable cause. The fact that larger quantities of drugs were not found does not mean that warrant is somehow invalid. Indeed, the empty meth vial and paraphernalia suggests the warrant was not simply a shot in the dark, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/25 "2011-01-20T14:49:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not sure how dogs got into this picture. The man had enough time to hear, “Police, search warrant,” and react accordingly React accordingly? I guess standing still and doing nothing was not an accordable reaction. Imagine if the man had actually rushed at the police with that bat, they probably would not only have killed him, but also would have raped his firstborn and salted his vegtable garden. I didnt know policemen serving a warrant had a shoot on sight policy, is this an American thing? One of those second amendment consequences you all talk about? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/26 "2011-01-20T14:54:13Z")
You know what I hate? Weasel words. Here’s a paragraph form the Gawker link: > [@](#): > > Blair’s family says he was a drug addict but never a dealer. Police informants said they’d seen Blair sell drugs, but no investigators witnessed any transactions. Either way, the warrant on Blair’s house was served as part of an investigation focused not on Blair, but on his former roommate Melanie Chournous—who police knew had moved out. An attempt to detain Blair so he wouldn’t be in the house was badly botched when police pulled over the wrong person. (Police didn’t bring the warrant to the house, either, not that it mattered in the end.) This account credulously prompts **Ionizer** to opine: > [@Ionizer](#): > > Lets see: 1) Cops lied to get warrant (knew the subject no longer lived there but said they needed a no-knock so _that_ person could not flush/destroy evidence) Legal? Nowhere does it say police lied. It says the warrant was served as part of an investigation on Chournous, and that police knew Chournous had moved out. So what? Probable cause can still exist to find the fruist of a crime in a residence that someone has moved out of. Where is the lie? > [@](#): > > 1. cops failed to pull over in a traffic stop the proper car, and knew it So what? What’s the relevance of this fact? > [@](#): > > 3)Knew beforehand there was not a warrant. Even went so far as to have their voice recorded saying “don’t tell me that” and other words that leave no doubt as to how hurried it was planned By “there was no a warrant” you don’t mean to say that a warrant didn’t exist, right? You mean to say that the physical paper was not in their hands as they entered the house, right? So what? What is the relevance of that? > [@](#): > > 4)ADMITTED THE DEAD MAN MADE NO MOVE TOWARDS HIM He was less than eight feet away from a man holding what appeared to be a sword. It would take someone in that position less than a second to lunge forward enough to slice the officer. > [@](#): > > 1. said nothing to dead man as far as any commands to do anything (shot a man for standing still as most people have heard to do Five seconds of, “Police, search warrant,” should be enough warning to any adult with a working brain that standing with a menacing pose holding a weapon is a Very Bad Idea. > [@](#): > > 6)trained to quickly shoot as fast as possible. Shooter made statements how they trained especially to do just as he did So what? What is the relevance of this? > [@](#): > > 7)appears that there is no remorse at all for shooting a man that received no commands whatsoever. So what? What is the relevance of this? > [@](#): > > There is no doubt in my mind that this was premeditated murder with the deceit in getting warrant, ensuring dead man was in the house by having another unit pull over a separate non-related person to appear something ws being done for safety. You feel that Sgt. Troy Burnett planned all along to kill Todd Blair, and conspired with his fellow officers to do so. There is not one scintilla of evidence in the story to support such a bizarre conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/27 "2011-01-20T14:59:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. The destruction of evidence is one of the primary reasons no-knock entries are approved. Knocking and waiting to see if the residents will open the door is simply an invitation to literally flush contraband down the commode. And are there any statistics on how many arrests are lost this way versus how many arrests end in injury? What you’re describing, ultimately, is a rationalization based on procedural correctness, rather than demonstrating an actual need for the procedure in the first place - contending that it was more important that the police follow their checklist than debate if they needed a checklist in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/28 "2011-01-20T15:01:11Z")
The first logical response when hearing “Police! Search warrant!” is to **freeze**. Making any other movement is **strongly** contra-indicated. This man did just what he was supposed to do, and was gunned down for doing so. The cop involved should be prosecuted for manslaughter at the very least, and all SWAT units should be prohibited from serving warrants of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/29 "2011-01-20T15:03:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I watched the video, and heard at least five iterationsof “Police! Search warrant!” prior to the shots bieng fired. I’m happy with my current means of earning a living, but if that ever changes and I decide to get a crew together to do home invasions, we’re gonna kick in doors and yell, “POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!”. Unless that would be some sorta copyright problem. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/30 "2011-01-20T15:30:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Five seconds of, “Police, search warrant,” should be enough warning to any adult with a working brain that standing with a menacing pose holding a weapon is a Very Bad Idea. Other than **kayaker** ’s obvious objection, imagine being startled in the middle of the night, by somebody trying to break down your freaking door. You awake in a panic, grab the nearest object with which to defend yourself, and are doing your best to process what in the holy fuck is going on. I’m sitting here, very much calm and watching at my leisure, and I can barely make out “Police, search warrant” in the video linked to above. In all honesty, I had no idea what they were shouting until your initial post on the matter. All I basically hear is a cacophony of noise, people shouting over each other, two gun shots, and then a clear “get on the ground.” I can’t imagine the guy, who is probably in a panic, had any better a grasp on the situation and time to process what in the living fuck was going on. Absolutely sickening, disgusting video. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/31 "2011-01-20T15:30:51Z")
Is everyone in America supposed to just know the exact reaction that will save their life in the event of a police raid, otherwise too bad for them? It looks like we get 5 seconds to decide if the invaders are there legally or illegally and a poor choice could mean our lives. That’s just sad. I hope the police never suspect me of using drugs, I’m not sure I would be able to submit quickly enough. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/32 "2011-01-20T15:47:03Z")
Oh my god. What an appropriate and appropriately timely news article. [Phony police ransack Ajax home](http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/924850--phony-police-ransack-ajax-home?bn=1) (yes, it’s from our criminal neighbors up north) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/33 "2011-01-20T15:47:49Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Is everyone in America supposed to just know the exact reaction that will save their life in the event of a police raid, otherwise too bad for them? Well, they _used_ to do [drills on ducking and covering in the event of nuclear attack](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW4s7TETtJA), but when this morphed into “being served with a no-knock warrant”, the funding for training evaporated as yet another short-sighted consequence of the end of the Cold War. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/34 "2011-01-20T15:51:08Z")
It seems as though the phrase “Drop your weapon!” has been removed from the U.S. police vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/35 "2011-01-20T16:01:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know what I hate? Weasel words. Me too. > [@](#): > > Five seconds of, “Police, search warrant,” should be enough warning to any adult with a working brain that standing with a menacing pose holding a weapon is a Very Bad Idea. Oh no, not a Very Bad Idea! (Isn’t that the subtitle of one of the Winnie the Pooh books?) Of course, if it’s a Very Bad Idea, then the shooting is justified. Any man who acts on a Very bad Idea is fair game. Funny thing, last week I went by a bar and grill where I used to go when I was younger. The place was full of skinheads, including one rather obnoxious 6’9" skinhead with a long beard. Puling that beard would have been a Very Bad Idea. Therefore, that skinhead would have been blameless if he’d killed me. Obviously. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/36 "2011-01-20T16:04:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m happy with my current means of earning a living, but if that ever changes and I decide to get a crew together to do home invasions, we’re gonna kick in doors and yell, “POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!”. Unless that would be some sorta copyright problem. > > Just sayin. I was thinking the same fucking thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/37 "2011-01-20T16:11:18Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Me too. > > Oh no, not a Very Bad Idea! (Isn’t that the subtitle of one of the Winnie the Pooh books?) Of course, if it’s a Very Bad Idea, then the shooting is justified. Any man who acts on a Very bad Idea is fair game. > > Funny thing, last week I went by a bar and grill where I used to go when I was younger. The place was full of skinheads, including one rather obnoxious 6’9" skinhead with a long beard. Puling that beard would have been a Very Bad Idea. Therefore, that skinhead would have been blameless if he’d killed me. Obviously. Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/38 "2011-01-20T16:14:27Z")
Regarding the golf club. It’s clearly a weapon. It’s clearly a weapon that can cause great bodily injury or death if certain areas of the body are struck with it. Whether a helmeted officer holding (presumably) an automatic weapon was in danger is another story. As much as I detest police violence, I detest violence on police officer. This case is a tragedy. But I’m not convinced the officers were criminally culpable. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/39 "2011-01-20T16:18:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. No, I think the point was that you hate “weasel words”, then used the weasel words “Very Bad Idea”. Did you mean that standing in your bedroom holding a golf club is a well-known way of committing suicide? What if it’s a five-year old holding a water pistol and saying “Don’t hurt my daddy!”? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/40 "2011-01-20T16:20:01Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Is everyone in America supposed to just know the exact reaction that will save their life in the event of a police raid, otherwise too bad for them? It looks like we get 5 seconds to decide if the invaders are there legally or illegally and a poor choice could mean our lives. That’s just sad. I hope the police never suspect me of using drugs, I’m not sure I would be able to submit quickly enough. Exactly! I have a small baseball bat under my bed (ZOMG deadly weapon!) and I’ve grabbed it on more than one occasion to investigate noises outside the house or my dog barking too much for no reason. If that had been my house (by mistake or whatever) I’m fairly certain that I would have been standing in the exact same place in the exact some pose, frozen in the exact same dumbfounded manner. I’m also fairly certain that my presence in my own home holding a bat would be of no real threat to any armed police officer. And yet my kids would grow up without a dad. I know the odds of all that happening are astronomical, but I still got a little sick watching that video. Aside from the whole meth thing, that guy behaved no differently than I would have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=3)