# Yet another SWAT raid death and no charges filed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278 "2011-01-20T02:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/401 "2011-02-10T17:12:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because that’s what the officer thought it was. And that’s what the law considers. That’s what the officer said he thought it was. We have no way of know what he actually thought at the time. If you tell me the law takes him at his word, without question, I’ll believe you. But I won’t be filled with confidence that the law works the way I would like. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/402 "2011-02-10T17:20:56Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > That’s what the officer said he thought it was. We have no way of know what he actually thought at the time. If you tell me the law takes him at his word, without question, I’ll believe you. But I won’t be filled with confidence that the law works the way I would like. In this case, without other evidence, I’d say it does. This is not to say the law would always take someone at their word. Their belief has to be both objectively reasonable and subjectively true. In this case, given the extremely short time span involved and the officer’s uncontradicted testimony, I can’t see much that would let a jury conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that he DIDN’T think there was a sword in play. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/403 "2011-02-10T17:23:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know if the freeze frame test you propose would make a difference – I suspect it might. I am trying to take into account the one second that is claimed the officer had to decide. Also, you still haven’t answered this question: What could Blair have done _after the police burst in_ to avoid being killed? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/404 "2011-02-10T17:27:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am trying to take into account the one second that is claimed the officer had to decide. > Also, you still haven’t answered this question: What could Blair have done _after the police burst in_ to avoid being killed? Don’t pick up a weapon. Lie on the floor of his room and yell, “I’m unarmed!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/405 "2011-02-10T17:37:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t pick up a weapon. Lie on the floor of his room and yell, “I’m unarmed!” You are asleep when a shitload of noise and light semi-wakes you, and you defend your castle by…lying on the floor and yelling out “I’m unarmed!”?? A little too much anti-2nd Amendment for my taste. Edited to add: When the fuck did he have time to put down the “weapon”, lie down and verbally surrender after the police burst in? Try again. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/406 "2011-02-10T18:01:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are asleep when a shitload of noise and light semi-wakes you, and you defend your castle by…lying on the floor and yelling out “I’m unarmed!”??. This. I’m not convinced that Blair knew it was the Police busting in either. In fact, I doubt he did. If he did know it was the cops, I sure as shit don’t think he would pick up a ‘weapon’. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/407 "2011-02-10T18:14:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are asleep when a shitload of noise and light semi-wakes you, and you defend your castle by…lying on the floor and yelling out “I’m unarmed!”?? A little too much anti-2nd Amendment for my taste. > Edited to add: When the fuck did he have time to put down the “weapon”, lie down and verbally surrender after the police burst in? > Try again. So you believe he was already holding the weapon? Working on his swing, was he, that evening? No. He picked up a weapon to attack (or, if you prefer, to defend). I don’t say that he acted unreasonably in that moment. He didn’t know what was going on. Except that when you live in a home that distributes drugs, you know, or should know, that it’s foreseeable that police will enter your home with a warrant. So what really would have prevented his death was: not dealing drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/408 "2011-02-10T18:34:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So you believe he was already holding the weapon? Working on his swing, was he, that evening? > > No. He picked up a weapon to attack (or, if you prefer, to defend). > > I don’t say that he acted unreasonably in that moment. He didn’t know what was going on. > > Except that when you live in a home that distributes drugs, you know, or should know, that it’s foreseeable that police will enter your home with a warrant. So what really would have prevented his death was: not dealing drugs. Quit ducking the question. What could Blair have done _after the police burst in_ to avoid being killed? For all we know, he picked up the first thing his sleep-addled brain could think of to defend himself, unless you actually want to put forth that this supposedly dangerous druggie’s weapon of choice to defend himself from break-ins was a fucking golf club. He was startled, grabbed something to defend himself with(could you honestly claim that you wouldn’t do the same?), stood up…and was gunned down. No sword. No movement in any direction. No time to obey orders to hit the floor(orders given _after_ he was gunned down.) No chance at all to survive this encounter. Will you at least admit that, after the police broke in, he had no chance of survival? All the facts given point to this conclusion-can you admit this much? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/409 "2011-02-10T18:51:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Quit ducking the question. What could Blair have done _after the police burst in_ to avoid being killed? For all we know, he picked up the first thing his sleep-addled brain could think of to defend himself, unless you actually want to put forth that this supposedly dangerous druggie’s weapon of choice to defend himself from break-ins was a fucking golf club. He was startled, grabbed something to defend himself with(could you honestly claim that you wouldn’t do the same?), stood up…and was gunned down. > No sword. > No movement in any direction. > No time to obey orders to hit the floor(orders given _after_ he was gunned down.) > No chance at all to survive this encounter. > > Will you at least admit that, after the police broke in, he had no chance of survival? All the facts given point to this conclusion-can you admit this much? No. “No chance” is an absurd statement. Let’s take your statement as true: he picked up the first thing his sleep-addled brain could think of to defend himself. He could have NOT picked up the first thing his sleep-addled brain could think of to defend himself. Yes, or no? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/410 "2011-02-10T18:53:03Z")
@Czarcasm. The standard of review in use of deadly force cases by police officers does not include hindsight as a factor for reviewing the facts. The standard of review involves what a reasonable officer, AT THE SCENE, at the time of the events perceived. It’s simple. If an armed group forces their way into your home, announces that they are the police, and you choose to stand with a weapon (golf club) held over your head as if ready to strike, then you will run a very real risk of becoming a statistic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/411 "2011-02-10T19:02:26Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > @Czarcasm. > The standard of review in use of deadly force cases by police officers does not include hindsight as a factor for reviewing of the facts. The standard of review involves what a reasonable officer, AT THE SCENE, at the time of the events perceived. > > It’s simple. If an armed group forces their way into your home, announces that they are the police, and you choose to stand with a weapon (golf club) held over your head as if ready to strike, then you will run a very real risk of becoming a statistic. I suggest you watch the tape again. He was already standing up(and still) when several police shouted over the top of each other, and he was gunned down. The police were so fucking confused they told him to get down _after_ they shot him down. If an armed group forces their way into your home in the middle of the night and shouting by several of them make it near impossible to understand what the fuck they are saying, then one shoots you before you have a chance to do jack squat, all you can do is die. I’ll ask you what I asked **Bricker** -what could Blair have done _after the police broke in_ to increase his chance of survival? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/412 "2011-02-10T19:06:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. “No chance” is an absurd statement. > > Let’s take your statement as true: he picked up the first thing his sleep-addled brain could think of to defend himself. > > He could have NOT picked up the first thing his sleep-addled brain could think of to defend himself. Yes, or no? Are you claiming that he picked up the golf club and stood up _after_ they announced that they were the police? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/413 "2011-02-10T19:49:14Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > @Czarcasm. > The standard of review in use of deadly force cases by police officers does not include hindsight as a factor for reviewing the facts. The standard of review involves what a reasonable officer, AT THE SCENE, at the time of the events perceived. By itself, that is incomplete. Surely the review can include the events leading up to the raid: Are officers properly trained? Are they fully aware that persons surprised in their own homes may not be able to instantly process what is going on? Are they prepared to take the extra few seconds’ risk to try to neutralize a situation with using deadly force? (And if they are not, are they prepared to resign?) Was the intended goal sufficient to serve a warrant in this matter, known to increase risk to both officer and citizen? Essentially, _how did the officer get into the situation where he shot somebody holding a golf club_? Clearly it’s worth looking beyond the second or two of the shooting itself. Frankly, if the officer can’t handle the job, he should quit, and if the department can’t serve a no-knock warrant without killing someone, they should be denied such warrants in future. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/414 "2011-02-10T19:57:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you claiming that he picked up the golf club and stood up _after_ they announced that they were the police? No, after he heard yelling and slams outside. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/415 "2011-02-10T20:17:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, after he heard yelling and slams outside. And was that an unreasonable response? I admit not being familiar with how (or if) the Castle Doctrine applies in this case, but is raising a golf club in response to yelling and slams the equivalent of a willful suicide-by-cop action? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/416 "2011-02-10T20:20:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, after he heard yelling and slams outside. Let’s not blur the issue yet again, please. When on that tape do you here(very unclearly) them yell out “Police!” When is he spotted, hunched with a golf club in his hand? When is he shot? When is he told to get on the ground? What would you have done differently in that situation in that exact time frame? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/417 "2011-02-10T20:24:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s not blur the issue yet again, please. When on that tape do you here(very unclearly) them yell out “Police!” When is he spotted, hunched with a golf club in his hand? When is he shot? When is he told to get on the ground? > What would you have done differently in that situation in that exact time frame? Indeed. We’re being asked to consider the viewpoint of the officer who opened fire to deal with a perceived threat, not the resident who raised a golf club to deal with a perceived threat. Since the officer had hours to plan and the resident did not, I figure we’ve a right to demand the officer’s behaviour be held to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/418 "2011-02-10T20:33:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t pick up a weapon. Lie on the floor of his room and yell, “I’m unarmed!” Whilst slightly… unimpressed with anyone that craven, I can’t help imagining that he would have simply made himself a more perfect target for the shots that would have still been uttered. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/419 "2011-02-10T20:47:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s not blur the issue yet again, please. When on that tape do you here(very unclearly) them yell out “Police!” When is he spotted, hunched with a golf club in his hand? When is he shot? When is he told to get on the ground? > What would you have done differently in that situation in that exact time frame? Did you ever watch “Happy Days?” I did. I was a youngster, of course, so my memory is vague on the exact dialog, but there was one episode when Richie was being harassed by a bully. He’s trying to figure out how he can either fight the guy and win, despite the fact that Richie’s not well versed in physical combat, or avoid the fight without looking like a coward. After agonizing over the problem, he goes to The Fonz for advice. “Fonz,” says Richie, “What would you do in my situation?” “Richie,” replies Fonzie, “I wouldn’t _be_ in your situation.” What you’re asking is: after weeks, months, years of making life-threatening decisions concerning selling drugs, what could he have done in the last ten seconds to ensure he didn’t suffer the consequences of those weeks, months, years? And if the answer is, “Very little,” it magically becomes a criminal act on the part of the cops. No. What could have done is followed Fonzie’s advice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278/420 "2011-02-10T20:49:19Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Whilst slightly… unimpressed with anyone that craven, I can’t help imagining that he would have simply made himself a more perfect target for the shots that would have still been uttered. “Imagine” is a good word. To say that a cop would have shot the man as he was lying prone on the ground with no weapon is such a far cry from what actually did happen that I’d say your imagination is about the only thing involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-swat-raid-death-and-no-charges-filed/568278.md?page=22)