What murder victim?
Answer my first question, first.
How is one supposed to tell the difference between crooks, vandals, thieves, rapists, and murderers yelling police and actual police?
Not only does it happen, it happened just three days ago, as mentioned in post #32. Here’s the link again if you missed it.
It’s different in more ways than you let on. They didn’t storm the residence because they weren’t serving a search warrant on the residence. The article says it was a “compliance check” on a “probationer” who (I assume - the article isn’t very clear) had some possible connection to a sought-after fugitive “wanted for assault with a deadly weapon.” Then things went sideways when it turned out the fugitive was actually at the apartment, leading to the fatal shootout and standoff.
I gather that the police (accompanied by probation officers and marshalls) were checking on a number of possible hiding spots for the fugitive and things became violent when they actually found him. By the connection you’re suggesting, there should have been no moments of knocking on the front door of a probationer associate of the fugitive and asking a few questions - the officers should have smashed their way into every residence at night, SWAT-style, for their own protection.
Not especially so for me.
Was it justified? Did the dead golfer (or his former roommate) have outstanding charges of violent crime, suggesting a possible outcome similar to what happened in San Diego? You’re not bothering to make distinctions, and you probably should.
Anyone still supporting the Murder-cop, pretend the same thing happened to your child, your wife/husband, or your parents. Then tell me, from that perspective, was it worth it?
I sincerely hope the murdering-cop responsible faces some kind of grievous punishment for his heinous act. If the law won’t deliver this justice, may the streets. I see no difference between the what the murdering slime did, and a thug. If you start treating innocent people like they’re the enemy, and killing them with no warning for no reason then they become the enemy and will return the sentiment.
A little hint. If you have to resort to the “what if it was you!” to make a point, you’re losing. The hyper-emotionality makes for some good righteous indignation, but not many people on this board think this event was anything but a horrible tragedy.
But it’s a valid point. People don’t care about people out of their monkey-spere so much, but they’re real people experiencing real, preventable, suffering. It’s an attempt to negate that.
Please tell me the good his death served that justified the agony inflected on, say his mother. Pretend it’s your mother. Seems like a valid point to me. Makes you look at it from a perspective where you actually care about the suffering of your fellow man.
Why? No could answer how the victim was to tell the difference between an invader shouting police and actual police.
Give me a reasonable answer for that, and you and your claimed majority have a point. Otherwise sans a way, then are we to just let who ever shouts police bust in to beat, rape, murder, whatever else?
I’m still trying to find some hard citations on how many SWAT-team drug raids end up facing sword-wielding drug dealers. My initial findings imply that the cop is either suffering from an overactive imagination, or lying to cover his ass. Either way, at a bare minimum he needs to be put in a position where he never holds a gun again.
In addition to that, having watched the video, and having more than a little experience with fast use of light swords, there is no earthly way that suspect could have been a threat to the cop even if it had been a sword. An A-rated fencer with a sabre would have been shot 15 times before they could get into range.
Seriously folks, this is bullshit and it boggles me that anyone can defend it. The man comes into view for a split second, and he’s dead. The first time I watched the video I was stunned, thinking “that’s it? That fast? Did I miss something?” I can only imagine what it would be like IRL, where I might be stunned for several seconds.
And since when does a sworn affidavit suddenly shift the burden of proof? Isn’t that just testimony? Or does “proof” mean something different to lawyers than it does to scientists?
You’re new here, right?
In my State, under the letter of the law you have the right to use deadly force to defend your home, and there is no written requirement that you ascertain whether or not it’s the cops or T-Dog and his home invasion boyz screaming “Police!” to get you to be cowed and comply. That having been said, I’m certain any DA worth his salt could find several other things to charge you with which would effectively end your free time in this world.
Provided the police decided to be magnanimous and not kill you for daring to defend yourself.
No, it’s an plea for emotional only response, devoid of rationality.
Who are you arguing with? As I already said, this is a tragedy. I’m not saying the victim deserved to be shot.
I, and everyone else in the world, including the police officer, would have loved it if he hadn’t pulled the trigger. I also think he should have waited and given the man the opportunity to put the club down, or at least take longer to ascertain the level of the threat he posed.
But it is a million miles between that and “the police officer is a murdering piece of scum who should be locked up forever.” I get that it was a tragedy. I get the righteous indignation, the vitriol, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the “how dare you, sir!!”.
But, once again, those emotional responses are not the ONLY thing thing that has to be considered. And what Bricker, Morgenstern, and others are talking about are those other things. The simple repetition of “MURDERER!” solves nothing, and doesn’t make a response to their points.
No, just an embarrassing pain in the ass.
How about this: the officer has proven he cannot handle the stress of situations like this, and should be reassigned permanently to a beat cop position? Is even that little of a punishment acceptable, or do we continue to send Quick Draw McGraw into additional scenarios where he shoots first - or perhaps worse, doesn’t shoot first when he needs to, fearing another mistake?
OK, how about what Bricker said about a sworn affidavit shifting the burden of proof. That’s a factual point - in what circumstances is that true, exactly? Isn’t an affidavit just testimony? Be nice with me, I’m not some big-city lawyer, just a stupid scientist.
I know nothing of the police officer outside of those 15 seconds, so I’m reluctant to judge his entire career, but yeah, I’d agree with that.
The sworn affidavit is presented to the judge, who considers it in determining whether or not to issue the search warrant. I’m not Bricker (thank heavens!), but I don’t think he meant “shift burden of proof” in the legal sense, but rather in the “the only real evidence we have in the case over the search warrant is in the affidavit”. I think he was simply pointing out that a judge found the evidence to be compelling enough to issue the search warrant, and there has been a lack of any other evidence presented. At least that’s my take on it.
OK, that makes sense if that’s the intended context.
I am not a golfer, but I have spent quite a bit of time in fencing studios (both of my kids fenced)
Now correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t golf usually played with the balls laying on the ground? There is that whole gravity thing. So someone holding a golf club is usually shown bent over with the club pointing toward the ground. Or in Utah do they play golf with the balls on the ceiling?
Fencing on the other hand the foil or saber or sword is held upward, as you are not trying to take your opponents ankles out.
Fact the item is held high (and before anyone says it, not in the style of a golf swing, and really does anyone practice driving in their living room?) in the manner of a sword. Watching the video in real time, you can’t see the head of the golf club all you see is a silvery shaft which looks a whole lot like a sword.
Next bullet proof vests are not sword proof. Cite As far as the distance goes, people have said he was 8 feet away. That is not far when dealing with a guy with a sword. My sleeve length is 32" and I have very short arms. Add to that the length of a sword (2-3 feet) and the distance that a sword fighter can lunge and the cop is very, very close to being in striking range. Drop by a fencing studio sometime and watch just how fast the action is. It is so fast they use electronic vests to detect touches since the eye can’t always follow the action it is too fast.
Now if he had been in his living room bent over putting into a glass, I would have a totally different take on this shooting. But based on the video, I have to agree that the officer had a legitimate fear of for life.
You know most people get emotional about an innocent person being shot. It’s normal. If you don’t what does that say about the kind of person you are? Yes that’s ad hominem I personally feel people who are okay with this are lacking something very important. They’re deficient in something good people need.
Good. So you agree an innocent person was shot, correct?
What does that say about events leading up to his execution? This was an execution. He was shot for the crime of trying to protect himself from possible thugs.
Let’s say someone shouts police and starts smashing in my door. How am I to know it isn’t a home invasion?
Why won’t you, or any of the murder’s supporters, answer that question. Just say it. Say you have no answer, and we are to be victims of any thug who shouts police.
Just say it. Admit it, why won’t you admit it?
Surely if we’re not, you can tell me how to tell, please tell me how to tell.
In before you don’t, because you can’t.
Since we’re to be victims of any thug who shots police then logically you care fuck all for anyone’s safety, unless they’re a cop.
This was a murder. The cop put the person in a situation where he felt in fear of his life, then shot him when he tried to defend himself from an unknown, identifiable threat. The murder’s hands are covered in his blood.
Rather not; he might take the descriptor too literally.
Not that the police ever use billy clubs on the lads nowadays when they get rowdy, yet he might mistake a candy seller for a drug dealer…
These fucking SWAT teams are so fucking stupid. A couple weeks ago my friend’s brother’s house was broken in to by a SWAT team looking for drugs, while he was in there. They shattered the sliding glass door and he heard the commotion, thinking it was a robber. Fortunately he didn’t have a weapon when they found him and forced him to the ground at gunpoint. Of course, they had the wrong house.
You’re proving my point, you know. But if that’s what gets you that high from righteous indignation, who am I to rain on your parade?
The police officers were executing a search warrant, they entered the house shouting police, and saw the victim with a golf club over his head. One police officer shot him.
Bullshit. Again, I understand your apparent need to chase the righteous indignation dragon, but there is absolutely no evidence this police officer went in there intending to shoot an innocent person.
You don’t. By taking a threatening position, you’re taking a chance that the police officers will think you are attacking them and shoot you. There are no winners here, Tao. This is a tragedy by all accounts, but until you get past that, you’re a complete waste of my time. But enjoy your shouting, I hope it helps.