# Yet another thread on gay marriage (spinoff from abortion thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411 "2012-01-13T18:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/21 "2012-01-14T01:45:45Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Ok. I’m going to try one more time; if I’m still perceived as being against gay marriage after this … well, I’m not sure how else to explain it. > > Bob marries Susan - it’s a civil union. They call it a marriage. > > Jeff marries Steve - it’s a civil union. They call it a marriage. But what would actually happen, since that’s the _point_ of civil unions: Bob marries Susan - they and everyone else calls it a marriage. Jeff marries Steve - it’s a civil union. _They_ call it a marriage. The government doesn’t, they are not legally treated like a married couple, and are sneered at for their ingratitude if they complain about this. Over the years, the gap between civil unions and marriage grows larger and larger, with CUs becoming ever worse in comparison. You can’t logically expect anything done to placate bigots to be anything but bigoted in effect. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/22 "2012-01-14T01:46:00Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Bob marries Susan - it’s a civil union. They call it a marriage. > > Jeff marries Steve - it’s a civil union. They call it a marriage. Try this: Bob marries Susan - it’s a marriage. Jeff marries Steve - it’s a marriage. Much simpler and clearer. Why even bother with the term “civil union”? It was invented entirely as a sop to the bigots. It’s not like it has any legal value or emotional weight behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/23 "2012-01-14T01:50:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But what would actually happen, since that’s the _point_ of civil unions: > > Bob marries Susan - they and everyone else calls it a marriage. > > Jeff marries Steve - it’s a civil union. _They_ call it a marriage. The government doesn’t, they are not legally treated like a married couple, and are sneered at for their ingratitude if they complain about this. Over the years, the gap between civil unions and marriage grows larger and larger, with CUs becoming ever worse in comparison. > > You can’t logically expect anything done to placate bigots to be anything but bigoted in effect. I’m really confused. It’s like I’m typing one language, but people are reading another. What you describe is not what I hope for in the slightest. And I’m starting to resent being accused of it. I’m feeling some friggin’ hostility in this thread. I am simply saying that I think heterosexual couples and gay couples should have all the same stuff, marriage, partnership, next-of-kin, whatever … everything. And I don’t care what you call it. Marriage - Civil Union - Domestic Partnership - Ball and Fucking Chain. I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![biddee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@biddee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biddee)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/24 "2012-01-14T01:52:10Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Why even bother with the term “civil union”? It was invented entirely as a sop to the bigots. It’s not like it has any legal value or emotional weight behind it. Totally agree! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/25 "2012-01-14T01:52:46Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m really confused. It’s like I’m typing one language, but people are reading another. > > What you describe is not what I hope for in the slightest. I didn’t say it _was_. I said that was what you would _get_, regardless of your desires. Civil unions are a political trap. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/26 "2012-01-14T01:54:47Z")
The thing is, I’m just using “civil union” as a placeholder. I may as well have typed “frying pan vacuum cleaner.” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/27 "2012-01-14T01:55:52Z")
Marriage is a perfectly valid word for a state-sanctioned union between two consenting adults (of opposite or the same sexes), and I see no reason why secular citizens should have to give it up. It’s not uniquely religious in origin–“marriage” come from the verb “to marry”, which in turn is from the Latin _maritus_ and seems to have prehistoric roots–and is used all the time in non-Christian and non-Judeo-Christian contexts. (“Julius Caesar married the daughter of Lucius Cornelius Cinna in 84 BCE”; “Genghis Khan–then still known by his boyhood name Temujin–married Börte of the Onggirat tribe”.) It’s not like the DMV calling taking your driving test and getting your license “being baptized as a driver” or the electoral commission talking about “the civil eucharist” for the act of voting. (“And then this little slip of paper is _miraculously transformed_ into the very body of the President of the United States!”) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/28 "2012-01-14T01:58:42Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I am simply saying that I think heterosexual couples and gay couples should have all the same stuff, marriage, partnership, next-of-kin, whatever … everything. Then you should realize that “civil unions” were invented to create a “second class” version of marriage. Yes, ultimately it doesn’t matter what we call things. But everyone already calls the union of a man and a women “marriage” whether the church is involved or not. Introduce civil unions into the mix and now you’ve created one form of union for straights and a different form of union for gays. You may say that’s not your intent, but that is what will happen in practice. “Separate but equal” doesn’t work. You say you don’t care about what term people use. Then just call it “marriage”. That’s the quickest route to equal rights for all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/29 "2012-01-14T02:03:44Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Why should we change the existing term we use to describe a legal union between two adults? This is pretty funny. Marriage has been understood to be a union of a man and a women (well, at least one) for time immemorial. Certainly for the entire history of the Uited States and most of Western cultural history. Then sprouts a desire to expand the definition in a fundamental way, and you cry that the term shouldn’t be changed? :eek: ::musing:: Sigh. You can’t make this stuff up… ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/30 "2012-01-14T02:03:50Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > You say you don’t care about what term people use. Then just call it “marriage”. That’s the quickest route to equal rights for all. Personally, I’d be happy to. Let me try this … I don’t mean to bring up “civil union” specifically to try to put it in anybody’s face, or something. I’m just trying to think of a generic term for “marriage.” It’s not an agenda, it’s just a matter of not having a thesaurus hard-wired into my brain. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/31 "2012-01-14T02:04:00Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The thing is, I’m just using “civil union” as a placeholder. I may as well have typed “frying pan vacuum cleaner.” Why not just use “marriage” as a placeholder, if you honestly don’t care? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/32 "2012-01-14T02:05:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is pretty funny. Marriage has been understood to be a union of a man and a women (well, at least one) for time immemorial. Certainly for the entire history of the Uited States and most of Western cultural history. Then sprouts a desire to expand the definition in a fundamental way, and you cry that the term shouldn’t be changed? :eek: > > ::musing:: Sigh. You can’t make this stuff up… The expansion of word definitions really baffles you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/33 "2012-01-14T02:06:12Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m just trying to think of a generic term for “marriage.” The generic term for marriage is “marriage”. We don’t need to invent a new word when the existing one already works perfectly well. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/34 "2012-01-14T02:08:31Z")
Jack Batty, my heart goes out to you. Trust me, if they sense you _might_ deviate from the scripture a scintilla of an iota, you get attacked. And their frothing blinds them from seeing that you are, in fact, in agreement with them. Funny to see as an observer, but I do know how frustrating it can be when one is in the position you’re in now. But I must ask you about this statement of yours: [QUOTE=Jack Batty] “frying pan vacuum cleaner.” [/QUOTE] Why is it that you think gays should embrace civil unions? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/35 "2012-01-14T02:10:40Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Personally, I’d be happy to. > > Let me try this … I don’t mean to bring up “civil union” specifically to try to put it in anybody’s face, or something. I’m just trying to think of a generic term for “marriage.” It’s not an agenda, it’s just a matter of not having a thesaurus hard-wired into my brain. But “marriage” already _is_ the generic term. Christian marriage, Jewish marriage, godless atheistic Communistic Soviet marriage, Shinto marriage, arranged marriage, polygamous marriage, polygynous marriage, polyandrous marriage, open marriage, traditional marriage, loving marriage, loveless marriage, marriage of convenience, morganatic marriage, and now same-sex marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/36 "2012-01-14T02:11:51Z")
I didn’t get the sense Jack Batty is in agreement with me. Rather, that he’s stalled on a surprisingly tiny stumbling block that any reasonable person should be able to bypass with a shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/37 "2012-01-14T02:12:54Z")
Don’t lump me into your camp, magellan, we are miles apart on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/38 "2012-01-14T02:14:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I didn’t get the sense Jack Batty is in agreement with me. Rather, that he’s stalled on a surprisingly tiny stumbling block that any reasonable person should be able to bypass with a shrug. Well, as I’ve already said a number of times, I would be pleased as punch to call gay marriage gay marriage. Is it the fnords or something? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/39 "2012-01-14T02:16:28Z")
And let me cut this off at the pass … I would be pleased as punch to call it, “marriage.” Thought you had one on me, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411/40 "2012-01-14T02:19:46Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Well, as I’ve already said a number of times, I would be pleased as punch to call gay marriage gay marriage. > > Is it the fnords or something? Well, you’re being unnecessarily _coy_ about it, suggesting some little unshakable reservation, but… fine, whatever. Will you be okay with saying “Robin and Pat are married”, without having to inquire about the genders of Robin and Pat? Do you care if some government official does so, also indifferent to gender? Can a gay-married couple be just a married couple, or is the qualifier necessary? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-thread-on-gay-marriage-spinoff-from-abortion-thread/609411.md?page=3)