# Yet another unjustified tasering by idiot cop **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2010, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359 "2010-09-02T07:33:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/21 "2010-09-02T16:01:39Z")
police officers have to account for every bullet shot from their service weapons right? is it the same for tasers? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/22 "2010-09-02T16:16:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Wow, another RO thread on the Dope involving a police officer. Has it been a whole week since the last one already? When cops stop tasering people for no good reason, or are at least routinely held responsible for doing so, then I’ll stop being upset about it. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/23 "2010-09-02T16:16:45Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Doesn’t sound like it was the latter in this case. From what I can tell, the guy was probably a little pissed off and in pain and he made a crack. If the cops were that worried about his well-being, they could have talked to him and his wife to figure out how serious or idle the threat to himself was before arresting him. > > Chrissakes, how many times have you put a finger to your head in mock suicide on a frustrating day? Does that warrant hand cuffs and an electrocution on the off chance you were just limbering up for the real thing? > > I think not. Emphatically agree. To me, this smacks of the same kind of ass-covering, letter of the law technicality bullshit that has led to our insane culture of liability lawsuit mania and zero tolerance nonsense. I don’t think it’s too much to expect police officers to exercise a little common sense based on the circumstances. This guy has committed no crime and he is no threat to anyone at the time – using force on him is patently unacceptable and should never have been an option in a situation like this. Period. If they felt he was a genuine suicide risk and he refused to come in for an evaluation, explain to him that you’re going to have to stick a psychiatry resident in an ambulance and drive them out there at his expense. Or let his wife sign a release that she’ll be responsibility for his safety. Or whatever – don’t just do a keyword filter and then refuse to budge from your one line playbook. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/24 "2010-09-02T16:23:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As I’ve said before - tasers were intended to be used as less lethal guns, but instead they’re employed as more painful nightsticks. I’d rather be tased than beat with a night stick any day. Tasing affects wear off quite quickly, broken bones and subdural hemorrhages, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/25 "2010-09-02T16:26:23Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > > Doesn’t sound like it was the latter in this case. From what I can tell, the guy was probably a little pissed off and in pain and he made a crack. If the cops were that worried about his well-being, they could have talked to him and his wife to figure out how serious or idle the threat to himself was before arresting him. > > > > Chrissakes, how many times have you put a finger to your head in mock suicide on a frustrating day? Does that warrant hand cuffs and an electrocution on the off chance you were just limbering up for the real thing? > > > > I think not. > > Emphatically agree. To me, this smacks of the same kind of ass-covering, letter of the law technicality bullshit that has led to our insane culture of liability lawsuit mania and zero tolerance nonsense. I don’t think it’s too much to expect police officers to exercise a little common sense based on the circumstances. This guy has committed no crime and he is no threat to anyone at the time – using force on him is patently unacceptable and should never have been an option in a situation like this. Period. > > If they felt he was a genuine suicide risk and he refused to come in for an evaluation, explain to him that you’re going to have to stick a psychiatry resident in an ambulance and drive them out there at his expense. Or let his wife sign a release that she’ll be responsibility for his safety. Or whatever – don’t just do a keyword filter and then refuse to budge from your one line playbook. While I agree very much with these thoughts, I’m compelled to point out that in fact, many people are going to be okay with this guy getting tasered. People don’t seem to want police to engage with citizens. Not the citizens, not the police, not the courts. I mean, a little common sense and an attempt to communicate could have saved [this deaf & disabled guy from getting tasered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526198), but if you read thru that thread, you’ll find that many people had no problem with that tasering. Or the one of the 14 year old girl who wanted to stand up in the police station instead of sitting down. Or the father holding his newborn infant in the hospital. I even started a thread to specifically ask [Is it ok to cause great pain, as long as there is no visible injury?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=517221) If you read thru that thread, you’ll maybe be surprised at the number of people who said “yes” to that question. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/26 "2010-09-02T16:27:59Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > As I’ve said before - tasers were intended to be used as less lethal guns, but instead they’re employed as more painful nightsticks. > > I’d rather be tased than beat with a night stick any day. Tasing affects wear off quite quickly, broken bones and subdural hemorrhages, not so much. I’d rather be communicated with, not ordered around by, police officers than tased or beaten, thanks, but apparently they don’t teach that in cop school. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/27 "2010-09-02T16:33:31Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > One thing that I don’t understand (and which **Bricker** might be able to explain) is how this kind of use of a taser complies with the 8th Amendment’s ban on crual and unusual punishment. Sure. The Eighth Amendment is inapplicable here. > [@Ingraham et al V. Wright et al](#): > > The Eighth Amendment provides: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” Bail, fines, and punishment traditionally have been associated with the criminal process, and by subjecting the three to parallel limitations the text of the Amendment suggests an intention to limit the power of those entrusted with the criminal-law function of government. An examination of the history of the Amendment and the decisions of this Court construing the proscription against cruel and unusual punishment confirms that it was designed to protect those convicted of crimes. The type of force used in an arrest or detention is analyzed under the Fourth Amendment: > [@Graham v. Connor](#): > > Where, as here, the excessive force claim arises in the context of an arrest or investigatory stop of a free citizen, it is most properly characterized as one invoking the protections of the Fourth Amendment, which guarantees citizens the right “to be secure in their persons . . . against unreasonable. . . seizures” of the person. This much is clear from our decision in Tennessee v. Garner, supra. In Garner, we addressed a claim that the use of deadly force to apprehend a fleeing suspect who did not appear to be armed or otherwise dangerous violated the suspect’s constitutional rights, notwithstanding the existence of probable cause to arrest. Though the complaint alleged violations of both the Fourth Amendment and the Due Process Clause, see 471 U. S., at 5, we analyzed the constitutionality of the challenged application of force solely by reference to the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition against unreasonable seizures of the person, holding that the “reasonableness” of a particular seizure depends not only on when it is made, but also on how it is carried out. Id., at 7-8. Today we make explicit what was implicit in Garner’s analysis, and hold that all claims that law enforcement officers have used excessive force — deadly or not — in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other “seizure” of a free citizen should be analyzed under the Fourth Amendment and its “reasonableness” standard, rather than under a “substantive due process” approach. Because the Fourth Amendment provides an explicit textual source of constitutional protection against this sort of physically intrusive governmental conduct, that Amendment, not the more generalized notion of “substantive due process,” must be the guide for analyzing these claims. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/28 "2010-09-02T16:35:35Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > As I’ve said before - tasers were intended to be used as less lethal guns, but instead they’re employed as more painful nightsticks. > > I’d rather be tased than beat with a night stick any day. Tasing affects wear off quite quickly, broken bones and subdural hemorrhages, not so much. Except when the person tasered drops dead. The effects of death are decidedly permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/29 "2010-09-02T16:37:52Z")
Woot! I had it right, even tho I didn’t have the fancy-schmancy cites! Thanks, **Bricker**! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/30 "2010-09-02T16:42:33Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > In any event, if the police had probable cause to believe the man was a danger to himself, they had the authority to take him into custody to prevent that harm. A man saying that if he had a gun he’d shoot himself clearly provides that probable cause. > > When you lawyer types use the term “probable cause,” what sorts of _probabilities_ are we talking about? More likely than not? A nontrivial chance, but not necessarily anywhere near 50-50? Substantially more likely than not? > > When I say, “It’s _probable_ that it will rain this afternoon,” **I** mean that it’s more likely than not that it will rain. But what do _you lawyers_ mean by it? Probable cause exists when the facts and circumstances within the officer’s knowledge, and of which he has reasonably trustworthy information, alone are sufficient to warrant a person of reasonable caution to believe that a particular act has been or is being committed. It’s a common-sense notion, and not supposed to be “a clinical analysis applied by legal technicians.” If a man says that if he had a gun, he’d shoot himself, that’s probable cause, unless you can show there were additional facts that should have told the officers he was joking. In other words, all the officers have to do to support a finding of probable cause is point to those words, which everyone seems to agree were spoken. To take away that finding, you’d have to show that no reasonable officer could have possibly believed those words were anything other than a joke. Nothing I have read so far supports such a finding. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/31 "2010-09-02T16:43:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > While I agree very much with these thoughts, I’m compelled to point out that in fact, many people are going to be okay with this guy getting tasered. > > People don’t seem to want police to engage with citizens. Not the citizens, not the police, not the courts. I mean, a little common sense and an attempt to communicate could have saved [this deaf & disabled guy from getting tasered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526198), but if you read thru that thread, you’ll find that many people had no problem with that tasering. > > Or the one of the 14 year old girl who wanted to stand up in the police station instead of sitting down. > > Or the father holding his newborn infant in the hospital. > > I even started a thread to specifically ask [Is it ok to cause great pain, as long as there is no visible injury?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=517221) If you read thru that thread, you’ll maybe be surprised at the number of people who said “yes” to that question. I’ll start with it sounds like the police, in this particular case, were wrong, but OTOH I wasn’t there and we don’t really even know what the guy said or how he said it. While I am loathe to defend the police in general, and incidents where they are actively and purposely committing crimes like pulling over young girls and raping them notwithstanding, the vast majority of these incidents could have been completely avoided had the alleged victims just shut the fuck up and cooperated. If I am confronted by a policeman I just comply. Not because I am a spineless sheep, but because in that moment I possess no authority or standing; any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/32 "2010-09-02T16:47:59Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > While I am loathe to defend the police in general, and incidents where they are actively and purposely committing crimes like pulling over young girls and raping them notwithstanding, the vast majority of these incidents could have been completely avoided had the alleged victims just shut the fuck up and cooperated. > > If I am confronted by a policeman I just comply. Not because I am a spineless sheep, but because in that moment I possess no authority or standing; any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so. So let me ask you: do you allow all officers who ask to search your person, vehicle and home? Would you? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/33 "2010-09-02T16:51:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So let me ask you: do you allow all officers who ask to search your person, vehicle and home? Would you? I would certainly request a warrant, but if they refused and went ahead and did it anyway, I’m not going to attempt to stop them, I’m going to document it however I can and call my lawyer. What is so hard about that? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/34 "2010-09-02T16:59:12Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > If I am confronted by a policeman I just comply. Not because I am a spineless sheep, but because in that moment I possess no authority or standing; any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so. I would do the same, but I think that’s missing the point. As citizens of a free society, we have a duty to scrutinize the behavior and actions of those we give the guns and badges to and make sure they are behaving correctly, _even when the people they are dealing with are not._ The discussion shouldn’t end with how the person at the other end of the taser could have acted differently to avoid being tased, but how an officer can deal with difficult situations without having to resort to force. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/35 "2010-09-02T17:06:10Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > As I’ve said before - tasers were intended to be used as less lethal guns, but instead they’re employed as more painful nightsticks. > > I’d rather be tased than beat with a night stick any day. Tasing affects wear off quite quickly, broken bones and subdural hemorrhages, not so much. Some people die from them. Ask their families which they prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/36 "2010-09-02T17:15:29Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > > [@DCnDC](#): > > > > If I am confronted by a policeman I just comply. Not because I am a spineless sheep, but because in that moment I possess no authority or standing; any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so. > > I would do the same, but I think that’s missing the point. As citizens of a free society, we have a duty to scrutinize the behavior and actions of those we give the guns and badges to and make sure they are behaving correctly, _even when the people they are dealing with are not._ The discussion shouldn’t end with how the person at the other end of the taser could have acted differently to avoid being tased, but how an officer can deal with difficult situations without having to resort to force. ^Bingo! Got it in one, **Giraffe**. **DcnDC** , I apologize for nitpicking this, but it’s an important point. In general, of course, you are correct that it is far better to simply comply with the officers demands now and bitch about it later. But it’s important to remember that this > [@DcnDC](#): > > **because in that moment I possess no authority or standing** ; **any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse** and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so.\*\* is not factually correct. You do have rights. You do have standing. That officer does not possess total authority over you. These are important things to remember, lest we lose them without noticing. There are times when you will be right to resist (“May I see that warrant please, before you enter?”) _and you should do so_. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/37 "2010-09-02T17:29:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But it’s important to remember that this > > > [@DcnDC](#): > > > > **because in that moment I possess no authority or standing** ; **any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse** and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so.\*\* > > is not factually correct. You do have rights. You do have standing. That officer does not possess total authority over you. These are important things to remember, lest we lose them without noticing. There are times when you will be right to resist (“May I see that warrant please, before you enter?”) _and you should do so_. Of course I have rights. Asking to see a warrant is a completely reasonable, legal, and highly recommended request. Perhaps my wording did not express this but my point was that putting up a fight or argument with a policeman **in that moment** is not a battle I’m going to win **in that moment**. The proper method of resistance that is **not** going to get me tased or beaten with nightsticks is to let them do what they’re going to do if they insist on doing it, documenting it and calling a lawyer who will fight that battle for me. Throwing punches, spitting, and arguing with the armed people with the highly stressful job is playing with fire. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/38 "2010-09-02T18:58:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@JXJohns](#): > > > > I’d rather be tased than beat with a night stick any day. Tasing affects wear off quite quickly, broken bones and subdural hemorrhages, not so much. > > Some people die from them. Ask their families which they prefer. People die from knocks to the head too. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/39 "2010-09-02T19:16:57Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > People die from knocks to the head too. What’s your point? Indeed – police should not knock people on the head just for the fun of it. Obviously it can be hard to judge in many real-life situations, but police need to balance the dangers of using tasers (and knocks on the head) against what other means they have available. In the situation presented by the OP, there was some danger that the person would commit suicide. There was also some danger (as warned by the wife) that use of a taser would kill the person. My guess is that the immediate danger of suicide was negligible, but the immediate danger of death from tasering was significant, so I’d have tried to use other means. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359/40 "2010-09-02T19:26:54Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > Some people die from them. Ask their families which they prefer. > > People die from knocks to the head too. What’s your point? Your implication that tasers are safer than getting beaten up. Nice choices aren’t they. If I had a gun I would shoot myself gives you a choice tasering or a beating. Pick which one you want. There is another option. Cops go away saying",nothing to see here". [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-another-unjustified-tasering-by-idiot-cop/552359.md?page=3)