Emphatically agree. To me, this smacks of the same kind of ass-covering, letter of the law technicality bullshit that has led to our insane culture of liability lawsuit mania and zero tolerance nonsense. I don’t think it’s too much to expect police officers to exercise a little common sense based on the circumstances. This guy has committed no crime and he is no threat to anyone at the time – using force on him is patently unacceptable and should never have been an option in a situation like this. Period.
If they felt he was a genuine suicide risk and he refused to come in for an evaluation, explain to him that you’re going to have to stick a psychiatry resident in an ambulance and drive them out there at his expense. Or let his wife sign a release that she’ll be responsibility for his safety. Or whatever – don’t just do a keyword filter and then refuse to budge from your one line playbook.
While I agree very much with these thoughts, I’m compelled to point out that in fact, many people are going to be okay with this guy getting tasered.
People don’t seem to want police to engage with citizens. Not the citizens, not the police, not the courts. I mean, a little common sense and an attempt to communicate could have saved this deaf & disabled guy from getting tasered, but if you read thru that thread, you’ll find that many people had no problem with that tasering.
Or the one of the 14 year old girl who wanted to stand up in the police station instead of sitting down.
Or the father holding his newborn infant in the hospital.
I’d rather be communicated with, not ordered around by, police officers than tased or beaten, thanks, but apparently they don’t teach that in cop school.
Probable cause exists when the facts and circumstances within the officer’s knowledge, and of which he has reasonably trustworthy information, alone are sufficient to warrant a person of reasonable caution to believe that a particular act has been or is being committed.
It’s a common-sense notion, and not supposed to be “a clinical analysis applied by legal technicians.”
If a man says that if he had a gun, he’d shoot himself, that’s probable cause, unless you can show there were additional facts that should have told the officers he was joking. In other words, all the officers have to do to support a finding of probable cause is point to those words, which everyone seems to agree were spoken. To take away that finding, you’d have to show that no reasonable officer could have possibly believed those words were anything other than a joke.
Nothing I have read so far supports such a finding.
I’ll start with it sounds like the police, in this particular case, were wrong, but OTOH I wasn’t there and we don’t really even know what the guy said or how he said it.
While I am loathe to defend the police in general, and incidents where they are actively and purposely committing crimes like pulling over young girls and raping them notwithstanding, the vast majority of these incidents could have been completely avoided had the alleged victims just shut the fuck up and cooperated.
If I am confronted by a policeman I just comply. Not because I am a spineless sheep, but because in that moment I possess no authority or standing; any resistance I offer or imply through words or actions only invites potential abuse and creates a situation where the offending officer could have a reasonable explanation for any perceived violation of my rights should he/she do so.
I would certainly request a warrant, but if they refused and went ahead and did it anyway, I’m not going to attempt to stop them, I’m going to document it however I can and call my lawyer. What is so hard about that?
I would do the same, but I think that’s missing the point. As citizens of a free society, we have a duty to scrutinize the behavior and actions of those we give the guns and badges to and make sure they are behaving correctly, even when the people they are dealing with are not. The discussion shouldn’t end with how the person at the other end of the taser could have acted differently to avoid being tased, but how an officer can deal with difficult situations without having to resort to force.
DcnDC, I apologize for nitpicking this, but it’s an important point. In general, of course, you are correct that it is far better to simply comply with the officers demands now and bitch about it later.
But it’s important to remember that this
is not factually correct. You do have rights. You do have standing. That officer does not possess total authority over you. These are important things to remember, lest we lose them without noticing. There are times when you will be right to resist (“May I see that warrant please, before you enter?”) and you should do so.
Of course I have rights. Asking to see a warrant is a completely reasonable, legal, and highly recommended request. Perhaps my wording did not express this but my point was that putting up a fight or argument with a policeman in that moment is not a battle I’m going to win in that moment. The proper method of resistance that is not going to get me tased or beaten with nightsticks is to let them do what they’re going to do if they insist on doing it, documenting it and calling a lawyer who will fight that battle for me. Throwing punches, spitting, and arguing with the armed people with the highly stressful job is playing with fire.
Indeed – police should not knock people on the head just for the fun of it. Obviously it can be hard to judge in many real-life situations, but police need to balance the dangers of using tasers (and knocks on the head) against what other means they have available. In the situation presented by the OP, there was some danger that the person would commit suicide. There was also some danger (as warned by the wife) that use of a taser would kill the person. My guess is that the immediate danger of suicide was negligible, but the immediate danger of death from tasering was significant, so I’d have tried to use other means.
Your implication that tasers are safer than getting beaten up. Nice choices aren’t they. If I had a gun I would shoot myself gives you a choice tasering or a beating. Pick which one you want.
There is another option. Cops go away saying",nothing to see here".