# Yet Aother Evangelical Christian Leader Bites The ... Dust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963 "2006-11-03T12:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/341 "2006-11-08T01:44:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Two other posters have already explained the context of my post to you. As I predicted, you were unwilling or unable to understand what they were saying to you. I consider myself vindicated on that score, and am glad I didn’t waste my time trying to teach logic to a chimp. What the fuck ever. Between your ridiculous claim that you did not mean what you clearly said, and the lamest fucking cop out I’ve ever seen, it’s clear that we’re not ever going to get through to each other. I don’t even think we’re speaking the same language. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/342 "2006-11-08T01:53:23Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > This whole brouhaha came about over the idea that a man might screw another man early and often not because he likes men, but because he’ll fuck anything. Wow, you were paying attention. That’s exactly what I’m saying. And if you think differently, you’re wrong. I can certainly see how someone would disagree, but that person would be uninformed. Forgive me for trying to fight a little ignorance. Notice that I am the only one who brought any evidence at all to this trainwreck. It might not be the best of evidence, but it beats the shit out of the evidence that you’ve presented, namely nothing but your own personal feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/343 "2006-11-08T01:55:35Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It happens all the time in the ‘sex offenders on parole’ demographic. Have you not been paying atention? Also, in case you were wondering, sex offenders on parole do not lie to their probation officers. Mainly because the probation officer’s wife, who is their therapist, would bust them for it. I love the way you play so fast and loose with my words, but holy shit, if I try to paraphrase someone, I’m a thick piece of shite. I never said any of those things, but here you are, presenting them like I did. Fucking hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/344 "2006-11-08T02:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] …Also, in case you were wondering, sex offenders on parole do not lie to their probation officers. Mainly because the probation officer’s wife, who is their therapist, would bust them for it. … [/QUOTE] How can one meaningfully interact with a therapist if one might be busted for it? Isn’t trust crucial? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/345 "2006-11-08T02:26:40Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > You suck **one lousy dick** and everyone thinks you’re gay… That reminds me, I’d like to take a quick break from the tussling over how to define gay to nominate **newcrasher** as Most Reformed Pit Poster of the Year, or at least of the Thread. From earnest pious rant squelcher to flippant, cussing, name-calling pottymouth—well done, **'crash**! _Now_ you get it! 😉 As a token of my admiration and esteem, please hereby accept my I.O.U. for one post of charitable, humble sympathy and apology, redeemable in any forum except the Pit, and usable on behalf either of yourself or of any other poster you choose to designate. (Validated by the National Fenestration Rating Council. Void where prohibited. Do not put I.O.U. up nose.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/346 "2006-11-08T02:31:14Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] What the fuck ever. Between your ridiculous claim that you did not mean what you clearly said, and the lamest fucking cop out I’ve ever seen, it’s clear that we’re not ever going to get through to each other. I don’t even think we’re speaking the same language. [/QUOTE] I’ve explained my position repeatedly in this thread, and you’ve done nothing but resort to the same tired micharacterizations over and over. You tell me why I should keep banging my head against the insurmountable edifice of your ignorance. Seriously, what’s in it for me, especially given the fact that nobody else in this thread has had any trouble understanding what I’m saying except you? > [@](#): > > Wow, you were paying attention. That’s exactly what I’m saying. And if you think differently, you’re wrong. I can certainly see how someone would disagree, but that person would be uninformed. Forgive me for trying to fight a little ignorance. Notice that I am the only one who brought any evidence at all to this trainwreck. It might not be the best of evidence, but it beats the shit out of the evidence that you’ve presented, namely nothing but your own personal feelings. Your evidence is shit. You’ve got the testimony of convicted sex offenders, filtered through your psychological expertise as a fucking _parole officer_. You don’t know anything more about the subject than anyone else in this thread, which makes your smug assertations of your superiority particularly galling. Despite this, several posters besides myself have actually tried to engage you on the “evidence” you provided, and every time, you ignored them on every single point, prefering instead to engage in petty nitpickery over word choice. Fighting ignorance? That’s a laugh. If anything, you’ve spread ignorance, because every time I read one of your dumb fucking posts, a little bit of my brain dies. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/347 "2006-11-08T03:37:26Z")
I don’t think it’s come up in this thread yet, but two weeks ago I was listening to the podcast [The Non-Prophets](http://www.nonprophetsradio.com/), where they were discussing the movie [Jesus Camp](http://imdb.com/title/tt0486358/). In that, a 12-year-old kid was a preacher, and he had a chance to talk to a man who is very prominent in the megachurch movement, who even meets regularly with President Bush. The adult preacher told him that his cuteness woud last him until he was 30, and by that time he will have developed good content. The Non-Prophets took this to mean that he realizes that what he’s selling is bullshit - it’s not from God, it’s crap you make up. So I was listening to this week’s show, and just now realized that the man in the _Jesus Camp_ movie is the same Ted Haggard who was in the news last week. Delicious! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/348 "2006-11-08T11:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] I love the way you play so fast and loose with my words, but holy shit, if I try to paraphrase someone, I’m a thick piece of shite. I never said any of those things, but here you are, presenting them like I did. Fucking hypocrite. [/QUOTE] Re-calibrate your irony meter, **Shirley**. It was a \*sarcastic \*_representation_, not intended as _argument_. You were taken to task for claiming I had said something that was not remotely close to what I said, and for using “it seemed obvious to me” as your cite. Your thickheadedness is your absolute refusal to accept that there is more than "the only possible piece of evidence … " I never said you were thick because of paraphrasing, and challenge you right here and now to prove otherwise. Oops. Not gonna happen, is it? > [@](#): > > Wow, you were paying attention. That’s exactly what I’m saying. And if you think differently, you’re wrong. I can certainly see how someone woulddisagree, but that person would be uninformed. Forgive me for trying to fight a little ignorance. Notice that I am the only one who brought any evidence at all to this trainwreck. It might not be the best of evidence, but it beats the shit out of the evidence that you’ve presented, namely nothing but your own personal feelings. As has been noted _ad nauseum_, your explanation is not the parsimonious one, so it requires a bit more shoring up than you have done so far. For one thing, despite repeated requests, you have yet to explain why a man who is satisfied with a jar full of flies as a sexual partner would go to such extreme lengths just to get laid. Please show me one scrap of evidence you have presented. (Hint. Anecdotes don’t count.) [QUOTE=elucidator] How can one meaningfully interact with a therapist if one might be busted for it? Isn’t trust crucial? [/QUOTE] One would think. \*\*Shirley \*\*has claimed that his wife discusses her patients with him. You can ask him for his explanation, and decide for yourself if it is satisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/349 "2006-11-08T12:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] How can one meaningfully interact with a therapist if one might be busted for it? Isn’t trust crucial? [/QUOTE] This is an excellent question, and unfortunately often presents us with a tough dilemma. First of all, though, under my state’s laws a therapist has a legal obligation to notify authorities when they think a child may be in danger. So in some cases it’s a no-brainer, they have to tell. When information falls into more of a gray area the therapist has to use his/her judgment, but all the therapists that I work with understand that the safety of the public is the most important consideration. A therapist who puts the public in danger to protect their client will soon find themselves with a dearth of clients. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/350 "2006-11-09T14:27:58Z")
[Link.](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4321662.html) > [@](#): > > There will be prayer, and perhaps the laying on of hands. There will be counseling and a confession. And there will be advice, confrontation and rebuke from “godly men” appointed to oversee the spiritual “restoration” of the Rev. Ted Haggard. > [@](#): > > “I see success approximately 50 percent of the time,” said H.B. London, vice president for church and clergy at Focus on the Family, the conservative Christian ministry in Colorado Springs. “Guys just wear out and they can no longer subject themselves to the process.” > > Those who fail “end up selling cars or shoes or something, and being miserable and angry the rest of their lives,” London said. > [@](#): > > One of the men who agreed to oversee the restoration, Focus on the Family founder James Dobson, has already withdrawn, citing a lack of time. The other two \_ Pastors Jack Hayford of The Church on the Way in Van Nuys, Calif., and Tommy Barnett of First Assembly of God in Phoenix \_ declined to comment on the specifics of Haggard’s program. Dobson has already bailed, citing time constraints. Or maybe he balked at the laying on of hands. Here is a fascinating take on the story. [Link.](http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_carolyn__061107_ted_haggard_and_fund.htm) A long article, but worth reading. > [@](#): > > Ted Haggard has now turned himself over to a program of “restoration” and placed himself in the hands of three very creepy fundamentalist superstars: James Dobson, Jack Hayford, and Tommy Barnett. Dobson is a clinical psychologist, but as rabidly anti-gay as Haggard purported to be, and all three fundamentalist ministers preach virulently against homosexuality. Haggard says that “those men will peform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical life. They will guide me through the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family.” Oh God, I shudder to contemplate what that will look like! > > There is strong evidence that Haggard has already been through one one of the programs which the theological trio is likely to utilize, the so-called ex-gay movement which incorporates intense psychological counseling and bible study in a an extremely concentrated regimen over a period of months or years to “cure” homosexuality. One can gain a feel for the vehemence and abusiveness of the program by watching at video clip at the Ex-Gay Watch blog. Many individuals who have survived the program and have eventually embraced their sexual orientation report that the ex-gay approach was for them a living hell. All I can say is I hope I never catch the gay. That motherfucker must be a flaming bitch to get rid of. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/351 "2006-11-10T18:53:47Z")
Well well well–it turns out that the evangelical community [knew Haggard was gay](http://thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13253) but sat on that info: > [@](#): > > Then, as if things could not get worse, there was the disgrace of Sheldon’s own friend and colleague, Rev. Ted Haggard, the Colorado mega-church leader and president of the National Association of Evangelicals, an even bigger pillar of Republican support on the Christian right. Sheldon disclosed that he and “a lot” of others knew about Haggard’s homosexuality “for awhile … but we weren’t sure just how to deal with it.” > > Months before a male prostitute publicly revealed Haggard’s secret relationship with him, and the reverend’s drug use as well, “Ted and I had a discussion,” explained Sheldon, who said Haggard gave him a telltale signal then: “He said homosexuality is genetic. I said, no it isn’t. But I just knew he was covering up. They need to say that.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/352 "2006-11-10T20:30:32Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Am I correct in saying that “But if you’re arguing that yes, he really did pay another man for sex, then the dude is gay.” is the same as saying that having sex with a male prostitute means you’re gay, in your opinion? [/QUOTE] In my opinion, no. The first statement is in relation to a specific example, while the second is a generalization. It’s perectly valid to allow a specific instance of a statement’s truth, while simultaneously declining to endorse the notion that the generalization of a similar statement is true. So, while in any given debate, an argument from the specific to the general _might_ lead to a conclusion that is consistent with observed reality, one cannot validly state that the general is logically necessary as a derivative of acceptance of the specific. What’s more, your examples are even a bit off from the statements that have been made in this thread. The posters who are saying that Haggard’s sexual behavior is good evidence for the assertion that he is gay, are explicitly noting that he [allegedly] visited a male prostitute **repeatedly**. Your example of the specific could be applied to both the habitual consumer of such services, and the curious experimenter with a couple of extra dollars in his pocket and some time to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/353 "2006-11-10T22:19:15Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] Well well well–it turns out that the evangelical community [knew Haggard was gay](http://thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13253) but sat on that info: [/QUOTE] Well damn. That’s a blockbuster. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/354 "2006-11-10T22:29:14Z")
Whaddya bet that within three years this guy will have either committed suicide or become a gay-rights activist? I just don’t see his state of denial continuing to hold up under that kind of pressure and publicity; **something** ’s gotta give. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/355 "2006-11-11T03:36:00Z")
[www.sojo.org](http://www.sojo.org) is a website I really identify with. It is a christian site focused on social justice issues. There are hopeful signs that more people of influence in the faith communities are getting beyond the salicious details of the Haggard story and are using this scandal as a chance for self reflections. Tony Campolo [writes](http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2006/11/tony-campolo-questions-raised-by.html): > [@](#): > > In the midst of all the turmoil, confusion, and disillusionment, it is all too easy to ignore the suffering of Mike Jones, the male prostitute who blew the whistle on our brother Ted. Mike also will be hurt. His life will never be the same. He will always be scorned and a marked man. > > We have to wonder: What drove him into prostitution? From whence did he get that low self-concept which, according to sociologists who study prostitutes, always characterizes these precious children of God? > > Do we, the Church, bear any responsibility for how Mike Jones might feel about himself? Might he have heard some of those sermons which define homosexuals as “abominations” in the eyes of God? > > Was it the war that so many leading Christians, including Mr. Haggard, have declared on the gay community that made Mike Jones feel that it was his “moral obligation” to expose the hypocrisy in evangelicalism? > > Did he feel so oppressed by the way in which we have generated political movements that threaten to deny gays and lesbians their civil rights that he was motivated to strike back in the only way he could? It is yet another hopeful sign that there are some followers of Jesus out there who are willing to examine the logs in our own eyes… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/356 "2007-02-06T16:39:44Z")
Hallelujah, He’s **CURED**! [Haggard now “completely heterosexual”](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations_1) > [@](#): > > One of four ministers who oversaw three weeks of intensive counseling for the Rev. Ted Haggard said the disgraced minister emerged convinced that he is “completely heterosexual.” > > Haggard also said his sexual contact with men was limited to the former male prostitute who came forward with sexual allegations, the Rev. Tim Ralph of Larkspur told The Denver Post for a story in Tuesday’s edition. > > “He is completely heterosexual,” Ralph said. “That is something he discovered. It was the acting-out situations where things took place. It wasn’t a constant thing.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/357 "2007-02-06T16:51:01Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [Haggard now “completely heterosexual”](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations_1) 😉 [/QUOTE] That’s one of the most Onionlike headlines I’ve seen in a while (that didn’t actually come from The Onion). What sort of tests do you suppose they run to confirm that no traces of his former gayness remain? ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/358 "2007-02-06T17:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] What sort of tests do you suppose they run to confirm that no traces of his former gayness remain? [/QUOTE] Well, I heard he finally threw out all his Liberace and Johnny Mathis records. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/359 "2007-02-06T17:07:40Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] What sort of tests do you suppose they run to confirm that no traces of his former gayness remain? [/QUOTE] “As you can see, gentlemen, the testicles have been resting on his lips for a solid five minutes, and he has not attempted to open his mouth once. Not even a little bit. …How are you doing in there, Ted?” “Mmm.” “Would you like to see if you can make it the full fifteen?” “Mmm hmmm.” ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/360 "2007-02-06T17:20:03Z")
How long before this fraud (Haggard) isn’t back on TV, sucking money out of the SS accounts of old widows again? The people who follow these fundy whackjobs seem to have a few screws loose…I remember when the other guy got caught with a hooker (was it Swaggart)? Anyway, within a few months, he was back swindling the clueless… :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963.md?page=19)