# Yet Aother Evangelical Christian Leader Bites The ... Dust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963 "2006-11-03T12:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/61 "2006-11-03T20:14:33Z")
Shrug, seems to me that voice mails only confirm that he had a meth problem. The gay sexual relations are a different story. I think it would be both a political and moral mistake to rush to condemn the man. Let’s see how this all plays out first particulary vis-a-vis the allegations of a sexual congress. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/62 "2006-11-03T20:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] The strategy depends on your opponents being, at heart, honorable and decent people. [/QUOTE] Why? And do you suppose your opponents are less decent than yourself? The British empire denied basic civil rights, including recognition of marriages to the Indian people in South Africa based not on there sexual orientation, but on their nationality. So either the British oppressors were not decent people and Gandhi succeeded anyway, or they were decent people. If the British were decent in their oppression of the Indians, how can you say gaybashers are not? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/63 "2006-11-03T20:28:39Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] No, it’s not a victory. As I said, it’s an opposing general being neutralized. A small victory. Far from a complete victory? Absolutely. Worthy of celebration? Absolutely. A lot more work to do? Absolutely? You’re a wet blanket? Absolutetly. [/QUOTE] You are only 10%, give or take, of society. You are NEVER going to win by knocking the other guy down. Your only hope is to get as many people as possible to help lift you up! Think about that…as it relates to this situation… I AM ON YOUR SIDE!! I just think you guys need to seriously get a VISION so you don’t get intoxicated on non-issues like Haggard. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/64 "2006-11-03T20:32:31Z")
As usual, \*\*Miller \*\*has found the words that express my thoughts more cogently than I, so I will yield that field to him . But since you are back, **newcrasher** , I am compelled to ask this of you again – [QUOTE=Me] I know absolutely nothing about you, so please understand that his question is asked in complete sincerity – Have you ever taken a stand that is pro gay marriage, or pro allowing gay couples to adopt, on the basis that “One destroyed family is too many”? Because I assure you, if indeed Haggard’s family is collateral damage in a culture war, it is one of a great many. Have you spoken for the many, or just the one? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/65 "2006-11-03T20:34:55Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] When the flames die down, you will be left with only this missed opportunity. [/QUOTE] 😕 What “missed opportunity”? What can Americans opposed to Haggard’s (stated) POV do, that they’re not doing already? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/66 "2006-11-03T20:41:13Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > You are NEVER going to win by knocking the other guy down. This. Is. The PIT. Where people who do scummy things get flamed for them. Where scummy people who are land themselves in difficulties get gleefully gloated over. This is not the place where we put our best foot forward and transcend our bad tendencies and take the high road and choose positive strategies for proactively getting to yes. This is where we rant and rave and swear and snarl and fume and freak and fight. High-mindedness has no place here. I swear to Og, if we get any more of these sanctimonious rant squelchers coming into Pit threads to plead with us to overcome our negative attitudes for the sake of making the world a better place, I may have to start a Pit thread myself. ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/67 "2006-11-03T20:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Shrug, seems to me that voice mails only confirm that he had a meth problem. The gay sexual relations are a different story. [/QUOTE] Well, that and he admits getting a massage from the guy, but I’m sure it was perfectly innocent. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/68 "2006-11-03T20:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] This. Is. The PIT. Where people who do scummy things get flamed for them. Where scummy people who are land themselves in difficulties get gleefully gloated over. This is not the place where we put our best foot forward and transcend our bad tendencies and take the high road and choose positive strategies for proactively getting to yes. This is where we rant and rave and swear and snarl and fume and freak and fight. High-mindedness has no place here. I swear to Og, if we get any more of these sanctimonious rant squelchers coming into Pit threads to plead with us to overcome our negative attitudes for the sake of making the world a better place, I may have to start a Pit thread myself. [/QUOTE] m’kay ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/69 "2006-11-03T20:48:00Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] You are only 10%, give or take, of society. You are NEVER going to win by knocking the other guy down. Your only hope is to get as many people as possible to help lift you up! Think about that…as it relates to this situation… I AM ON YOUR SIDE!! I just think you guys need to seriously get a VISION so you don’t get intoxicated on non-issues like Haggard. [/QUOTE] We didn’t knock anyone down. Or even try. He fell tripping over his own hypocrisy. Glossing over this area of bankruptcy in his character is missing the opportunity to teach the perils of such hubris. No. I will not be quiet in this small victory. Intoxicated I may well be. But in the morning I’ll be sober. You’ll still be acquiescing. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/70 "2006-11-03T20:48:08Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] You are only 10%, give or take, of society. You are NEVER going to win by knocking the other guy down. Your only hope is to get as many people as possible to help lift you up! Think about that…as it relates to this situation… I AM ON YOUR SIDE!! I just think you guys need to seriously get a VISION so you don’t get intoxicated on non-issues like Haggard. [/QUOTE] THIS ISN’T ABOUT WHO IS GAY AND WHO ISN’T. THIS IS ABOUT A HYPOCRITE WHO HAS TRIED TO DESTROY PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF HIS GOD GETTING HIS COMEUPPANCE. As has been noted, this is the goddam motherfucking Pit. If I want to take a few moments out of my day to do a little dance of Schadenfreude over some idiot WHO HAS HURT PEOPLE WHILE CALLING IT THE WILL OF HIS GOD being called out in public for the liar that he is, then this is the place to do it. Furthermore, your sanctimony offends the crap out of me. Just because your particular moral or religious system is opposed to people having the audacity to have human emotions for five goddam minutes doesn’t mean we all share it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/71 "2006-11-03T20:48:31Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] I know that we live in a society that demands its “pound of flesh” from the guilty. But is there not a kernel of wisdom in how Gandhi approached his oppressors? Somehow he defeated the British Empire in South Africa and in India with his tactics. Certainly they could be employed against the mouth-breathing cretins leading the religious right. Which brings me to Haggard. I am a follower of Jesus. And I can safely say I don’t know who this guy is. And I don’t care. From what I do know he is everything I loathe about Christians. He seems a bit loony. [/quote] “Mouth breathing cretins?” “Loony?” “Loathe?” Not that I disagree with the language you’ve chosen, but isn’t that sort of at odds with the overall point you’re trying to make? > [@](#): > > That being said, don’t paint all followers of Jesus with the same broad brush. Has anyone in this thread done that? **Der Trihs** , maybe, but I don’t feel like scrolling back to read his post to make sure. I know _I_ certainly haven’t. I’m well aware of the vast gulf between Haggard and the ideals put forward by Jesus Christ. > [@](#): > > There is a new, emerging, ancient Christianity that is nothing like Swaggert/Haggard/Falwell/Roberts/Robertson. We are following Jesus’ call for justice for the oppressed and food for the hungry. We are visiting people in jail and in the hospital. We are organizing against war and for the poor. We don’t want fancy cars or homes, we want to help our neighbors get medical care. Our neighbors are gay/black/homeless/latino/undocumented/wealthy/orphan/dirty/white/asian/depressed/old people. We realize how wrong the right is, and we also know the left doesn’t get us at all. But we are out there. We don’t want awards or to have the President on speed dial, but we don’t want to be lumped in with what the evangelical right has made out of popular Christianity. Best of luck to you on that. The religious right has been begging for a backlash for twenty years now. It’s high time they got one. > [@](#): > > An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Many have parsed my words in their response, but what would the reaction be if the gay community had released the statement I wrote above? When I said the dialogue has got to become more civil, I meant the greater societal dialogue. We keep tearing at each other, feeling justified because the other is a fudgepacker or a hippocrite. Each swipe we take at each other creates pent up anger and the desire to get even. Eventually you get your chance. Somewhere someone has to say ENOUGH! Even though you have wronged me, I will not hit you back. Even though I now have the opportunity to harm you, I will not. What is the worst thing that can happen? If it doesn’t work, you can always kill each other later… ☹ Because that doesn’t always work. Sometimes, when you refuse to hit back, it just means you get hit more. It is important to have a space for civil dialogue in the gay rights movement, but it is just as important to have anger and outrage. It has to be made clear that we will not accept being treated the way Haggard and Falwell and Dobson want us to be treated. “Turn the other cheek,” sounds good on paper, but in practice, it just sends the message that you don’t mind being hit in the face. > [@](#): > > And what happens if we direct our ire at Haggard? We destroy him? Expose him for the two-faced jerk he is? Giggling gleefully along the way? Guess what? His evangelical right friends will abandon him too. He will have failed the movement, presented himself unworthy before God and man. He will be reviled by his former friends as the devil in their midst. And guess what. At the end of the day they will still hate fags. The hydra will grow a new head and the Christian right beast will plod on. First, we didn’t destroy Haggard. He destroyed himself. And secondly, yes, there will be someone to step into the vacuum he left. But odds are, that person won’t be as charismatic, as well-connected, or as politically savvy as Haggard. He was one of the top men in the evangelical movement, and he’s not going to be easily replaced. His movement will definitly falter, if only for a little while, as a result of his disgrace, and that gives us another inch of ground. We gain enough inches, and soon enough we’ll have a mile. > [@](#): > > I do not believe it will change overnight. I think it will take years, maybe generations. But that does not mean we should not try. This is a chance for the gay community to pick off the members of the right (to accept them, not join them 😉 )who are not completely comfortable there. Find common ground with a few. Then a few more. But going after Haggard is not incompatible with this at all. Haggard, who has attacked gays as anti-family, has revealed himself to be entirely unconcerned with the welfare of his own family. We can use him as a contrast, between gay marriage advocates who want the stability and fidelity of their relationships to be recognized, and Haggard himself, who takes the stablity and fidelity implied by his marriage and pisses all over it with whores and drugs. You don’t think that there are a few people on the right who pick up on this discrepency, and who are going to think twice about pledging their support to whoever shows up next spouting exactly the same rhetoric? I do. There won’t be a lot of them, but there will be a some. And when the next one goes down, there will be a few more. Every one of them is another inch. > [@](#): > > The religious right is a cancer on society. They are a cancer on Christianity. They aim to destroy those who do not agree with them. I believe those tactics will fail when employed by them, and when employed against them. We have to engage the more open minded of them in honest dialogue, seeking to find agreement where we can. They are wrong by an atheistic moral code of right and wrong, and they are wrong by any faithful reading of the teachings of Jesus. Again, we didn’t destroy Ted Haggard. We don’t need to destroy these people: they destroy themselves. But we’d be fools not to exploit the opportunity presented when one of them self-destructs. > [@](#): > > A better world is possible. Only if we’re willing to fight for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/72 "2006-11-03T20:49:37Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Shrug, seems to me that voice mails only confirm that he had a meth problem. The gay sexual relations are a different story. [/QUOTE] That won’t wash. Why is the guy’s dealer a gay prostitute? ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/73 "2006-11-03T20:49:59Z")
And I cross-posted that rant with **newcrasher** ’s acknowledgement of Kimstu’s post, so now I look a little hysterical. Don’t mind me. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/74 "2006-11-03T20:51:33Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] This. Is. The PIT. Where people who do scummy things get flamed for them. Where scummy people who are land themselves in difficulties get gleefully gloated over. This is not the place where we put our best foot forward and transcend our bad tendencies and take the high road and choose positive strategies for proactively getting to yes. This is where we rant and rave and swear and snarl and fume and freak and fight. High-mindedness has no place here. I swear to Og, if we get any more of these sanctimonious rant squelchers coming into Pit threads to plead with us to overcome our negative attitudes for the sake of making the world a better place, I may have to start a Pit thread myself. [/QUOTE] Well said! ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/75 "2006-11-03T20:52:44Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] You are only 10%, give or take, of society. You are NEVER going to win by knocking the other guy down. Your only hope is to get as many people as possible to help lift you up! [/QUOTE] Oh bullshit. Gays aren’t alone in this. I’m straight but I’m dancing on Haggard’s political grave too. His politics are an affront to human decency and dignity, which you dont have to be the target of to take personally. I guarantee you there are a lot more people enjoying this than there are crying over him. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/76 "2006-11-03T20:57:18Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I know absolutely nothing about you, so please understand that his question is asked in complete sincerity – Have you ever taken a stand that is pro gay marriage, or pro allowing gay couples to adopt, on the basis that “One destroyed family is too many”? Because I assure you, if indeed Haggard’s family is collateral damage in a culture war, it is one of a great many. Have you spoken for the many, or just the one? [/QUOTE] I am against the destruction of any family, wether they be Mr. and Mrs. Rev. Haggard or Mr. and Mr. Steve and Kyle Bonesmoker. Have I ever used that particular argument in defense of gay marriage or other gay rights? I dunno. But I have a gay brother in law who has a partner, and they have a child. They are part of our family and we don’t really make a big deal about it. They are just…there. Like I am. But I guess the answer to your question is no. I have defended gay marriage and adoption because if two committed adults want to love each other and raise a family, I really don’t care. I think the world is running a little low on love these days and if two guys or a coupla gals can find it, have at it! I am very interested in social justice. My church focuses on helping the poor in my community, as well as a community in Pavas, Costa Rica and Santa Ana, El Salvador. It isn’t that I wouldn’t actively participate in the gay rights movement, it is just that I am very busy with other efforts. To be honest, in my travels, Haggard barely makes it onto my radar screen. Like I said, I don’t want a medal. Just don’t paint me witht hte same brush you use for the religious right. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/77 "2006-11-03T20:57:44Z")
We can all relax now. Turns out he only went to the guy for a [massage](http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html), and he threw the drugs away. Thank goodness! I was worried there for a minute. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/78 "2006-11-03T20:58:38Z")
**newcrasher** the reason to not cover this up is that a lot of people follow people like this. Wouldn’t it be nice if we expose these haters as hypocrites, or at least make their congregations start thinking about what they say critically. From your POV, maybe this will help their congregations follow Jesus and not Rev. Haggard or Preacher Joe Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/79 "2006-11-03T21:04:53Z")
[QUOTE=lisacurl] THIS ISN’T ABOUT WHO IS GAY AND WHO ISN’T. THIS IS ABOUT A HYPOCRITE WHO HAS TRIED TO DESTROY PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF HIS GOD GETTING HIS COMEUPPANCE. [/QUOTE] So he’s moving people into concentration camps now is he? Being against gay marriage is not quite the same as him destroying people. Seems a little OTT there mate. As I said, let’s wait to see what comes out of this. I don’t think a huge “I told you so” backlask or “he’s getting his” will help the cause. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/80 "2006-11-03T21:06:13Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] **newcrasher** the reason to not cover this up is that a lot of people follow people like this. Wouldn’t it be nice if we expose these haters as hypocrites, or at least make their congregations start thinking about what they say critically. From your POV, maybe this will help their congregations follow Jesus and not Rev. Haggard or Preacher Joe Bob. [/QUOTE] Right. I never said cover it up. I just said offer Haggard the love and understanding he has denied others. Scream that message from the mountaintop. THAT will get the attention of people who say they follow Christ but find themselves following Haggard. At least a few of them. As Gandhi did, follow Jesus more than Haggard did. What will they do when the fag is obviously following Jesus more than their pastor? They will really have to search their soul for an answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963.md?page=5)