# Yet Aother Evangelical Christian Leader Bites The ... Dust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963 "2006-11-03T12:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/121 "2006-11-04T03:36:37Z")
[QUOTE=5que] Well, that and he admits getting a massage from the guy, but I’m sure it was perfectly innocent. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] With or wirhout a happy ending? Inquiring minds want to know. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/122 "2006-11-04T03:56:05Z")
**newcrasher** , I would be interested in your comments in another thread where non-violent strategies and the Christian Left are discussed. Leave a link here if you decide to open one. As much as I admire and envy the spirit of your posts, I must admit to celebrating those “gotcha!” feelings today. But I don’t understand how anyone could take pleasure out of seeing his family members hurt. Can’t we at least assume that _they_ are innocent? Children hurt by their father makes it even worse. If Haggart can learn to understand and value himself as he is, then maybe his children will be more open-minded adults. Certainly, Haggart would become more capable of truly loving other human beings as they are. The more often that happens, the more accepting our society will become. Mocking and humiliation aren’t good teaching tools. They perpetuate violence and revenge Look at Israel and Palestine. **newcrasher** , I found out something today that surprises and intrigues me. Maybe the idea of reconciliation between opposites in our society isn’t as unreachable as it seems sometimes. Do you remember when the Rev. Jerry Falwell sued Larry Flynt for a fake ad that Flynt ran in one of his magazines? The ad suggested that Falwell’s first sexual experience had been with his mother in an outhouse. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court and Flynt won. What I learned today is that Falwell and Flynt have since become good friends. (My source is the person who moderated a debate between them.) I like your ideas. Maybe some are meant to do what you described and still others have to go a different route. > [@](#): > > **What Exit?** : Sometimes you just need to let anonymous people have a little bit of joy at the expense of assholes without a sermon about doing the right thing and taking the high road. This looks like an easy case of letting **Contrapuntal** have his joy if he wants. That’s one good thing about the Pit. But it’s not always easy to tell which anonymous poster deserves the joy of and which one is the asshole, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/123 "2006-11-04T04:37:01Z")
Gosh, I can’t keep up. It’s raining cats’ and dogs’ shit, this storm. Bob Ney’s out, finally. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/124 "2006-11-04T05:35:02Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Here’s from the Harper’s article last year on [Haggard] on the early days of his church: Mercy on us, I was just leafing through that article and came upon this description of the church’s recently dedicated World Prayer Center: > [@](#): > > The atrium is a soaring foyer adorned with the flags of the nations and guarded by another bronze warrior angel, a scowling, bearded type with massive biceps and, again, a sword. The angel’s pedestal stands at the center of a great, eight-pointed compass laid out in muted red, white, and blue-black stone. Each point directs the eye to a contemporary painting, most depicting gorgeous, muscular men—one is a blacksmith, another is bound, fetish-style, in chains—in various states of undress. > > My favorite is The Vessel, by Thomas Blackshear, a major figure in the evangelical-art world. Here in the World Prayer Center is a print of The Vessel, a tall, vertical panel of two nude, ample-breasted, white female angels team-pouring an urn of honey onto the shaved head of a naked, olive-skinned man below. The honey drips down over his slab-like pecs and his six-pack abs into the eponymous vessel, which he holds in front of his crotch. But the vessel can’t handle that much honey, so the sweetness oozes over the edges and spills down yet another level, presumably onto our heads, drenching us in golden, godly love. Part of what makes Blackshear’s work so compelling is precisely its unabashed eroticism; it aims to turn you on, and then to turn that passion toward Jesus. Looks like Haggard got stuck halfway. I’m starting to be surprised that nobody saw this scandal coming. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/125 "2006-11-04T06:04:26Z")
So, on the one hand we have the pro-marriage movement. And on the other hand we have the anti-marriage movement, as exemplified by a man who allegedly cheated on his spouse to have anonymous drug-fueled sex with a total stranger. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/126 "2006-11-04T06:59:16Z")
Jeez, you make sex for money sound so tawdry! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/127 "2006-11-04T07:14:18Z")
Maybe I’m just being slipped up by the psycho evangelica-speak, but how is someone who has never used drugs sorely tempted by crystal meth? I’ve never used crystal meth. I guess if I cared that much, I could be curious about what it was like. But SORELY curious? So much so that I would buy some, stare at, tempted, toss it away, and then ask if I can get some more, and supposedly do the same thing? That doesn’t sound like the behavior of a cold sober person: that sounds like an addict wrestling with a craving, not someone wrestling with curiosity. His story is probably the most ridiculous and implausible set of excuses since Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/128 "2006-11-04T12:20:30Z")
OK to see a sample of his wackiness check out this [youtube](http://youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE) video. The serious wackiness begins about 2:25 if you wanna fast forward. It doesn’t seem to me that he was leading a church, but a nonthinking cult. I kept waiting for his to pass out cyanide-laced coolaid. Who did not see this guy and get the heeby-jeebies a long time ago? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/129 "2006-11-04T13:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Well, I’m keeping Ted Haggard & especially his family & church in my prayers, but man, this doesn’t look good. … The messengers may fail & falter but the Word stands Eternal. [/QUOTE] “By Their Actions You Shall Know tHem”? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/130 "2006-11-04T13:09:01Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] There is a new, emerging, ancient Christianity that is nothing like Swaggert/Haggard/Falwell/Roberts/Robertson. We are following Jesus’ call for justice for the oppressed and food for the hungry. We are visiting people in jail and in the hospital. We are organizing against war and for the poor. We don’t want fancy cars or homes, we want to help our neighbors get medical care. Our neighbors are gay/black/homeless/latino/undocumented/wealthy/orphan/dirty/white/asian/depressed/old people. We realize how wrong the right is, and we also know the left doesn’t get us at all. [/QUOTE] I’d be willing to bet that much, if not most, of the left _does_ get you. I don’t have much use for religion anymore, myself, but I think that there are lots of people who feel like I do: people who do what you describe above would be firmly in the camp of “the left” regardless of their beliefs. I notice that later you used the term “the religious left.” Well, given what a vast percentage of this country identifies as Christian, don’t _most_ of the liberals in this country have to be Christians? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/131 "2006-11-04T13:48:13Z")
[QUOTE=chorpler] I’d be willing to bet that much, if not most, of the left _does_ get you. I don’t have much use for religion anymore, myself, but I think that there are lots of people who feel like I do: people who do what you describe above would be firmly in the camp of “the left” regardless of their beliefs. I notice that later you used the term “the religious left.” Well, given what a vast percentage of this country identifies as Christian, don’t _most_ of the liberals in this country have to be Christians? [/QUOTE] I don’t think the left gets us at all, because when you mention Christian, people already have an image, and it is not what my friends are into. We completely baffle and enrage the right. The label “Christian” fails the people involved in this emerging faith. I find most people claiming to be Christian to be people loosely involved in a social network that centers around worship services at a particular church. They are not interested in changing their lives to reflect the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus is often an incovenient annoyance best explained away or whitewashed into a kid hugging hippy. So a majority of liberals identifying as Christian does not particularly make me identify with being a lib. Maybe I am. I really don’t care. If the vast majority of our country were following Jesus, and not some wingnut Pastor, our society would be very different. For one, last night in my city there would not have been 1,500 homeless people (400 kids under 12) who suffered through our first night with temperatures in the 20s. A faithful reading of what Jesus taught would not have allowed this. To bring this back around to Haggard, in 2005 there were an estimated 1,146 homeless in Colorado Springs. 27% were children. I will leave it to you to search how many times Jesus mentions the poor, and how many times he mentions building $13 million worship campuses. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/132 "2006-11-04T14:10:22Z")
My ten cents: I think that **newcrasher** is doing a fine job of holding up an ideal, one that it would be wonderful for everyone to aspire to. However, in the practical world we live in, the message that’s newsworthy is not “feed the poor, help the homeless, heal hurts, live a life as dedicated to others as self” but that of the Haggards, Falwells, Dobsons, etc. – and even **Der Trihs** , strident and broad-brush as he can get, is entitled to raise hell about the hypocrisy they practice. Look at our very own **Bible Man** , ignoring the very theme of Jesus’s message in pursuit of his own private image of Christianity. (And you all know who will be hot on my ass with a random bit of hyperbole from the Gospels, insisting that if I were a “real” Christian, I’d take it literally.) So IMO – if you can do it, espouse the sort of standard that **newcrasher** does; it can only improve the world. Denounce the people who, like Haggard, have co-opted Jesus into the straw-man for their own political/religious-power agendas. Be prepared to have mercy on them if they **do** really repent of their hypocrisy. But don’t hold your breath waiting. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/133 "2006-11-04T14:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] My ten cents: I think that **newcrasher** is doing a fine job of holding up an ideal, one that it would be wonderful for everyone to aspire to. However, in the practical world we live in, the message that’s newsworthy is not “feed the poor, help the homeless, heal hurts, live a life as dedicated to others as self” but that of the Haggards, Falwells, Dobsons, etc. – and even **Der Trihs** , strident and broad-brush as he can get, is entitled to raise hell about the hypocrisy they practice. Look at our very own **Bible Man** , ignoring the very theme of Jesus’s message in pursuit of his own private image of Christianity. (And you all know who will be hot on my ass with a random bit of hyperbole from the Gospels, insisting that if I were a “real” Christian, I’d take it literally.) So IMO – if you can do it, espouse the sort of standard that **newcrasher** does; it can only improve the world. Denounce the people who, like Haggard, have co-opted Jesus into the straw-man for their own political/religious-power agendas. Be prepared to have mercy on them if they **do** really repent of their hypocrisy. But don’t hold your breath waiting. [/QUOTE] I see your point but I don’t think we are that far apart. I would hope that people, especially people of a liberal bent, are aspiring to a better world, and ending injustice. I think most people are hoping to get there someday, but first they need to bring those who oppose them to heel, see the self-righteous fall and slobber over their pound of flesh. What I am saying is, lets just skip that step. Let’s start treating people as we want to be treated now. If we plan to treat people as we want after we have treated someone poorly (even though justified) we will become the hippocrits (new and improved) I believe that treating people with love and understanding and forgiveness is a friskin’ radical concept. I want to see someone try it. From what I know about Jesus, he would be completely cool with society’s rejected homosexual community bringing a new message of radical love. I think Jesus would love to see the despised fags expounding his love and showing the evangelicals for the phonies they are. That is sort of Jesus’ bag. We have been “raising hell” about hippocracy for a long time, and it doesn’t seem to be in short supply. Maybe its time for a new concept. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/134 "2006-11-04T14:53:41Z")
While we gleefully exalt in the fall of another hated evangelical leader for acts we would otherwise put in the category of “live and let live” and support the religious right for withdrawing their support of Haggard, it might be interesting to note that Haggard has been a moderating influence in that community. From [Haggard and tolerance – The Denver Post](http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_4599331) > [@](#): > > For example, he raised the ire of fellow evangelicals when he applauded a 2003 U.S. Supreme Court decision striking down a Texas anti-sodomy law. > > “I believe the church has to teach against immorality, but I don’t believe it’s the role of the state to spend money to find out what consenting adults do in their bedrooms and then haul them off to jail,” he told The Denver Post last year. > [@](#): > > When Muslims expressed outrage in 2003 over the comments of religious conservative Franklin Graham, who disparaged Islam, Haggard urged fellow evangelicals to temper their speech. And it was Haggard who offered an apology on behalf of evangelicals when Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. > [@](#): > > Haggard was involved in writing Colorado’s constitutional amendment on marriage, which would cement into the state constitution its definition as a union between one man and one woman. However, he resisted efforts that would have had the ballot measure ban domestic partnerships. > > “We want to say marriage is something, and we also want to give the freedom for citizens or legislators if they want to give similar benefits to other people,” he told The Post in January. If we ever want to see change in that powerful religious right community it isn’t going to come from outside. Haggard’s fall is really our loss. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/135 "2006-11-04T15:04:34Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] That’s one good thing about the Pit. But it’s not always easy to tell which anonymous poster deserves the joy of and which one is the asshole, is it? [/QUOTE] Agreed, but this case looks like a perfect example of mostly harmless and mostly healthy schadenfreude. **newcrasher** ’s views are admirable and very generous. It just seems like raining on the parade in this thread. If this dirt bag homophobe spreader of hate is not worthy of a pit thread rejoicing in his turn of fortune, who is? We pit bad tippers here, we pit slow drivers and fast drivers. We pit almost anything. The Reverend Ted Haggard is well deserving of a good pitting and this pitting has almost no chance of furthering the hurt “He” has caused his family. Jim ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/136 "2006-11-04T15:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] As much as I admire and envy the spirit of your posts, I must admit to celebrating those “gotcha!” feelings today. But I don’t understand how anyone could take pleasure out of seeing his family members hurt. Can’t we at least assume that _they_ are innocent? Children hurt by their father makes it even worse. [/quote] That would be the Christian way. But, as we say in the Church of the SubGenius, “What should you throw a drowning Pink?” "His _wife_ and _child!"_😃 ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/137 "2006-11-04T15:39:01Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] If we ever want to see change in that powerful religious right community it isn’t going to come from outside. Haggard’s fall is really our loss. [/QUOTE] Nahhhh. That the guy preaches a moderated form of fundie Christian bigotry doesn’t do much for me. Anyway, it’s not what he did, it’s that he got caught saying one thing (which brought him fame and riches) and doing quite another. You want that kind of hypocrite leading the sheeple, that’s great. To me, it’s “One down, many more to go.” ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/138 "2006-11-04T15:51:44Z")
**newcrasher** , is there anyone you would consider pit-worthy? ---
**Author:** ![Wildfire\_MM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@Wildfire\_MM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildfire_MM)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/139 "2006-11-04T16:04:23Z")
glad to hear it ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963/140 "2006-11-04T16:32:16Z")
Yeesh. I’m reading the article **uglybeech** linked to, about Haggard’s psychotic war with “Control”, and I’m not feeling like we lost _anybody_ worth keeping. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yet-aother-evangelical-christian-leader-bites-the-dust/378963.md?page=8)