# YogSosoth **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710 "2012-01-16T17:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/21 "2012-01-19T08:38:03Z")
AND YOU ARE PROSELYTIZING TOO!!! In this very thread you’re trying to convince people that your beliefs are correct. (To be more specific, you’re trying go convince **A Monkey With a Gun** that your beliefs are not stupid.) That’s what people with differing beliefs do! By equating religion with evil things, you’re just doing the exactly the same thing you hate about “religious people.” What bothers you is that they think you are evil and then do something about that evil. The only thing that keeps you from being as bad is that your viewpoint is not shared by enough people that you could actually do something about it. The viewpoint itself is just as evil. Religion is merely a group of philosophies shared amongst a group of people. It can’t be inherently bad or good. Hence the quotes in the paragraph above. The concept that it’s okay to be intolerant to intolerance, when applied to a group of people, is not accurate: it first requires you to make the bigoted statement that all people in a certain group are bad (save for groups that are defined by their badness). Now, don’t get me wrong. I have no problem with you sharing your views in that one thread, since that’s what it was for. I just find the view itself to be bad. If I were the OP, I’d have opened a GD thread to discuss it rather than pit you for sharing. There’s no reason I could say everything I said above in GD. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/22 "2012-01-19T08:39:42Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Okay, I’m sure that either I’m reading this wrong or there’s some sort of joke / reference that I’m missing, but do you really mean this? Or is your comment flying over my head for some reason that I’m too drunk to pick up on right now? > > Please tell me I’m just being dense. Because I like you and from what I’ve seen of your posts, you’d never say something like this. Until its been explained to me, color me astonished. Don’t worry. He’s making a point that, just because someone posted the view in the right thread doesn’t mean the OP of this one doesn’t have the right to object. He’s counting on people knowing that he’d never say something like this. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/23 "2012-01-19T10:14:50Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Please tell me I’m just being dense. Because I like you and from what I’ve seen of your posts, you’d never say something like this. Until its been explained to me, color me astonished. Don’t worry, it’s a … ε= _whoosh_ ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/24 "2012-01-19T15:23:23Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You see, ultimately, I’d want a society where you can believe what you want provided you follow one rule: don’t bother people who don’t believe what you believe. Its like the Golden Rule. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Religion should be banned and religious people should be forcibly converted or killed. Its a blight on mankind, the worst thing we’ve ever invented, and the sooner it is removed, the better. The irony is strong in this one ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/25 "2012-01-19T15:24:20Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Please tell me I’m just being dense. Because I like you and from what I’ve seen of your posts, you’d never say something like this. Until its been explained to me, color me astonished. Color you astonished? Are you telling me that some skin tones are more accepting of astonishment? What color would astonished be anyway? I’m white. Is it acceptable to you that I sometimes have feelings of astonishment? Or do I need to get a tan first before you’re willing to let it slide? I can’t believe some of the racist shit that’s flying around here these days. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/26 "2012-01-19T15:38:01Z")
Oh, and **Yog**? I’ll pray for you. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/27 "2012-01-19T15:54:04Z")
**Abe Babe** , in your “irony” post above, I think the two parts you quoted - if I’m following **YogS.** correctly, and I may not be - are pointing out that since ultimately religion does NOT “[not] bother people who don’t believe what you believe” then religion does not follow its own Golden Rule and thus should, in a perfect society, be eliminated. Of course, we’ll never have perfect societies either. **YogSosoth** , please feel free to correct my interpretation of your posts. I’m not trying to presume to speak for you; I’m attempting to play the role of interpreter, since I have been both religious and non-religious. Anyone who believes that religion does, in fact, not “bother people who don’t believe what you believe” is free to pay a quick visit to, oh, say, almost anywhere in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/28 "2012-01-19T16:52:30Z")
It’s shocking to me that 'dopers have radical (and misguided, if not batshit insane) ideas concerning things like RELIGION! Who would have thought such a thing?? 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/29 "2012-01-19T17:15:09Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > **Abe Babe** , in your “irony” post above, I think the two parts you quoted - if I’m following **YogS.** correctly, and I may not be - are pointing out that since ultimately religion does NOT “[not] bother people who don’t believe what you believe” then religion does not follow its own Golden Rule and thus should, in a perfect society, be eliminated. > > Of course, we’ll never have perfect societies either. **YogSosoth** , please feel free to correct my interpretation of your posts. I’m not trying to presume to speak for you; I’m attempting to play the role of interpreter, since I have been both religious and non-religious. > > Anyone who believes that religion does, in fact, not “bother people who don’t believe what you believe” is free to pay a quick visit to, oh, say, almost anywhere in the Middle East. The huge majority of ‘the religious’ do not insist on imposing their views on others. Those who do are assholes, and I don’t like them. Most atheists don’t insist on denigrating the beliefs of the religious every. single. time. it’s. brought. up. Those who do are, like **Yog** , assholes, and I don’t like them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/30 "2012-01-19T18:04:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Can all of you insufferable religious people look at yourselves and admit honestly that you’re not being persecuted, you’re simply pretending to be that to hold on to your power? > … > So fuck yeah, I stand by what I posted in that other topic. Religion should be banned and religious people should be forcibly converted or killed. Its a blight on mankind, the worst thing we’ve ever invented, and the sooner it is removed, the better. Capital idea, my dear fellow. What say we start with the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/31 "2012-01-19T18:33:45Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Capital idea, my dear fellow. What say we start with the Jews? First they came for the Jews… ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/32 "2012-01-19T19:29:50Z")
Godwinized already? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/33 "2012-01-19T19:37:41Z")
I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/34 "2012-01-19T20:23:16Z")
> [@Abe\_Babe](#): > > The huge majority of ‘the religious’ do not insist on imposing their views on others. Those who do are assholes, and I don’t like them. > > Most atheists don’t insist on denigrating the beliefs of the religious every. single. time. it’s. brought. up. Those who do are, like **Yog** , assholes, and I don’t like them. Slight disagreement. Nobody seems to mind when the religious impose their beliefs that we should be, for example, taking care of the poor. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/35 "2012-01-19T20:24:42Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Slight disagreement. Nobody seems to mind when the religious impose their beliefs that we should be, for example, taking care of the poor. You don’t know any Libertarians, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/36 "2012-01-19T20:57:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Anyways, its perfectly fine to get rid of religion because its ok to be intolerant of intolerance. You see, ultimately, I’d want a society where you can believe what you want provided you follow one rule: don’t bother people who don’t believe what you believe. That one rule makes everyone equal, as you can have the craziest belief about anyone else you want but only if you allow them to have the same. Its an equalizer. Its like the Golden Rule This doesn’t make any sense at all. There’s plenty of things that at lot of people believe that aren’t at all “provable” but are necessary for our society to operate. For instance, one of the things that most people at least claim to believe is that all men are created equal, they may attribute that to a belief in God or to some sort non-religious moral argument, and it’s the basis for our freedoms, that I deserve the same freedoms you do because we’re equal. And yet, that belief isn’t provably true; in fact, I could easily come up with arguments against it. You know that guy who is less intelligent than you are, he’s clearly not equal, maybe he deserves less. Sure, you can try to say you meant only religious beliefs, but how do you draw any sort of meaningful line about what is and is not related to religion? And why should religion get any sort of treatment in that area that other sources don’t? Now, I do agree that people generally shouldn’t force their beliefs on others, but it shouldn’t be limited to religious ideas. It’s just as annoying to hear the endless tirades of people wanting to legalize pot or convince people to go vegen or go green or vote for a specific political party or whatever. Why should religious beliefs be treated differently? > [@](#): > > If one group tries to sneak some kind of bullshit into that system by taking advantage of the freedom that everyone enjoys and expecting others not to retaliate, then I have a problem with it. Religion likes to play the victim and claim crap like they’re being persecuted, when in fact they are simply being defended against by people tired of religion trying to persecute them. What do you want, religion to have free reign to attack others? If religion won’t play by the rules and leave everyone alone, then religion needs to end Religion doesn’t persecute people, persecution is done in the name of religion by people. Unless you can meaningfully say that all people associated with a certain belief system necessarily believe something, you’re generalizing and prejudging. For instance, sure, a lot of Christians think homosexuality is a sin, but there are some who don’t, and even of those who do, many of them don’t have any issue with legalizing gay marriage and let the sin be between those people and God. It’s not the religion that is persecuting gays, it’s homophobes who use it as an excuse to do it. And painting everyone who associates with the religion as holding that view is no different than judging any other sort of group by the behaviors or beliefs of a subset of that group. Absolutely laws should be made based upon reasons that make sense for the population as a whole and not a specific religion. But the problem is, you don’t see that you’re doing EXACTLY the same thing against religion for the opposite reason. You want to persecute religious people because of your disdain for religion rather than wanting to persecute people who disagree with some particular religious view. It’s two sides of the same prejudiced coin. > [@](#): > > What I would take issue with **A Monkey with a Gun’s** caricature of my beliefs is that he seems to think I want everyone to think the same. I don’t. Believe it or not, I can live perfectly fine with religious people and religion in the world. Sure, I prefer it not be around, but I can certainly tolerate them and leave them alone provided they afford me the same courtesy. What you’ve espoused isn’t a sign of tolerence. Imagine if you replaced religion with a race instead. “I can live perfectly fine with black people and black people in the world. Sure, I prefer them not be around, but I can tolerate them and leave them alone provided they afford me the same courtesy.” Read that and tell me that’s not racist, and then try to say that saying the same thing about religion is still tolerant. And if that doesn’t work, replace it with something else, like gays. Tolerance isn’t about just dealing with them because killing them all off or at least shipping them all of to some other place isn’t a real option. If anything its even worse than flat out hating them because it gives the person claiming that the false impression that they actually are tolerant. > [@](#): > > But religion never leaves anyone alone. It either proselytize or kills. If religion never tries to force its rules into law, or pretends like other religions or atheists asking for equality is an attack, then I can be fine with it. I can tolerate that from asshole political beliefs, but not from something that’s provably fake. At least with politics, its a difference in opinion many times, not a difference in facts. Religion taints that, because somewhere deep down there is the belief that some invisible man in the sky wrote down some archaic rules thousands of years ago for you to follow, and that it never ever should change. And you are upset that other people are using a caricature of your beliefs? Yes, SOME religious people believe essentially that, but I know I don’t believe anything close to that, and I know far more people who would disagree with all of it than with any portion of it. You’re painting a group of billions of people with the beliefs of small fraction of them. Yes, some religious people want to put in place religious laws, but plenty don’t. Hell, there’s plenty of things that religious people and non-religious people agree on that should be illegal, like murder for instance. But a lot of the laws that people are passing for religious reasons that shouldn’t be passed has a lot less to do with religion than you think. The reason they appeal to religion is because they don’t have another thing to appeal to. For instance, in the past, a lot of people used religion to justify racist laws. Today, the vast majority of religious people wouldn’t hold that view at all. Or, from the opposite perspective, I’ve met atheists who oppose gay marriage. From one of them, her reasons were that it’s unnatural and “icky” and unnatural things like that should be banned for the same reasons we ban other forms of deviant sex acts. It’s essentially the exact same logic, it’s just an appeal to nature rather than to God. > [@](#): > > Its a lot like abortion. Religion is pro-life, trying to force everyone to do it their way. Atheism is pro-choice, which makes you can either abort or NOT abortion. Even though by default, its like atheism telling people to do it their way, in practice, it means you have the freedom to choose to ultimately get an abortion or not. Religion never acknowledges that there are plenty of pro-choice people who wouldn’t abort, they just want the option there in case someone else wants to. People like me who wouldn’t mind to have religion be a part of the world (because its really annoying having to fight them all the time) simply want to be left alone by religion. Don’t censor “obscenities” because some of us like it. Don’t tell use we can’t abort because some of us want to. Don’t tell us that all leaders running for high office needs to pass a de facto religious inquisition. Don’t try to ban things we like such as prostitution, drugs, or other vices. Just leave us the fuck alone, can you do that, religion? No, they’re not really at all alike. Abortion is an issue of at what point the child has rights, what those rights should be, and whether or not those rights can trump the mother’s. A lot of people appeal to religion to justify that the child is alive and should have rights from conception, but there are plenty of religious people who are pro-choice, and plenty of people who are not religious who believe that at least some limitations should be placed on abortion because they believe life begins before birth, just not at conception. Really, it seems to me like you’re ascribing all of these ideas you don’t like to religion and all the ones you agree with to atheism. Atheism isn’t pro-choice, it isn’t pro-life either; it has no opinion on the matter because it has nothing to do with it. All it means is that people who have opinions on it aren’t going to attribute those reasons to God. > [@](#): > > Can all of you insufferable religious people look at yourselves and admit honestly that you’re not being persecuted, you’re simply pretending to be that to hold on to your power? If the basic tenets of your belief is that you must restrict the actions of others to freely practice their belief, then your belief is wrong. And say what you want, but me asking you to tolerate atheists isn’t changing your beliefs as much as you telling us we shouldn’t even exist. So fuck yeah, I stand by what I posted in that other topic. Religion should be banned and religious people should be forcibly converted or killed. Its a blight on mankind, the worst thing we’ve ever invented, and the sooner it is removed, the better. Religion isn’t being systematically persecuted, but there are people out there, like you, who have extremely prejudiced and bigotted views about religion. And the idea that you think people should be forcibly converted or killed makes you every bit as bad as all of the religious people who claimed the same thing. You are a hypocrite; you are guilty of EXACTLY the same sort of extremism and hate that you accuse the religious as a whole of. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/37 "2012-01-19T21:07:48Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means… > > -XT Was that aimed at me? (Holy hell that’s a long post, **Blaster Master.** ) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/38 "2012-01-19T21:08:30Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Was that aimed at me? (Holy hell that’s a long post, **Blaster Master.** ) If the horseshoe fits… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/39 "2012-01-19T21:48:07Z")
There’s no irony and no contradiction. People who try to force their beliefs on other people FIRST do not deserve to go uncontested. Its no surprise that some of you could only cut out a small snippet of what I posted, admitted its rambling because it was late and I was tired, and pretend like they distilled the entire argument from 2 lines. It always happens when this issue is raised. So for the interest of clarity and ease, I’ll reduce my entire argument into a couple lines as well: 1. “People should leave each other alone to believe what they want.” 2. “However, if you don’t leave other alone, they are within their rights to remove your beliefs as an obstacle to their free expression.” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/40 "2012-01-19T22:13:05Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Capital idea, my dear fellow. What say we start with the Jews? Can we make the Jews last? I’m dating this smoking hot jewish chick and I’d like to get laid a couple of more times. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > This doesn’t make any sense at all. There’s plenty of things that at lot of people believe that aren’t at all “provable” but are necessary for our society to operate. For instance, one of the things that most people at least claim to believe is that all men are created equal, they may attribute that to a belief in God or to some sort non-religious moral argument, and it’s the basis for our freedoms, that I deserve the same freedoms you do because we’re equal. And yet, that belief isn’t provably true; in fact, I could easily come up with arguments against it. You know that guy who is less intelligent than you are, he’s clearly not equal, maybe he deserves less. > > Sure, you can try to say you meant only religious beliefs, but how do you draw any sort of meaningful line about what is and is not related to religion? And why should religion get any sort of treatment in that area that other sources don’t? > > Now, I do agree that people generally shouldn’t force their beliefs on others, but it shouldn’t be limited to religious ideas. It’s just as annoying to hear the endless tirades of people wanting to legalize pot or convince people to go vegen or go green or vote for a specific political party or whatever. Why should religious beliefs be treated differently? > > Religion doesn’t persecute people, persecution is done in the name of religion by people. Unless you can meaningfully say that all people associated with a certain belief system necessarily believe something, you’re generalizing and prejudging. For instance, sure, a lot of Christians think homosexuality is a sin, but there are some who don’t, and even of those who do, many of them don’t have any issue with legalizing gay marriage and let the sin be between those people and God. It’s not the religion that is persecuting gays, it’s homophobes who use it as an excuse to do it. And painting everyone who associates with the religion as holding that view is no different than judging any other sort of group by the behaviors or beliefs of a subset of that group. > > Absolutely laws should be made based upon reasons that make sense for the population as a whole and not a specific religion. But the problem is, you don’t see that you’re doing EXACTLY the same thing against religion for the opposite reason. You want to persecute religious people because of your disdain for religion rather than wanting to persecute people who disagree with some particular religious view. It’s two sides of the same prejudiced coin. > > What you’ve espoused isn’t a sign of tolerence. Imagine if you replaced religion with a race instead. “I can live perfectly fine with black people and black people in the world. Sure, I prefer them not be around, but I can tolerate them and leave them alone provided they afford me the same courtesy.” Read that and tell me that’s not racist, and then try to say that saying the same thing about religion is still tolerant. And if that doesn’t work, replace it with something else, like gays. > > Tolerance isn’t about just dealing with them because killing them all off or at least shipping them all of to some other place isn’t a real option. If anything its even worse than flat out hating them because it gives the person claiming that the false impression that they actually are tolerant. > > And you are upset that other people are using a caricature of your beliefs? Yes, SOME religious people believe essentially that, but I know I don’t believe anything close to that, and I know far more people who would disagree with all of it than with any portion of it. You’re painting a group of billions of people with the beliefs of small fraction of them. Yes, some religious people want to put in place religious laws, but plenty don’t. Hell, there’s plenty of things that religious people and non-religious people agree on that should be illegal, like murder for instance. > > But a lot of the laws that people are passing for religious reasons that shouldn’t be passed has a lot less to do with religion than you think. The reason they appeal to religion is because they don’t have another thing to appeal to. For instance, in the past, a lot of people used religion to justify racist laws. Today, the vast majority of religious people wouldn’t hold that view at all. > > Or, from the opposite perspective, I’ve met atheists who oppose gay marriage. From one of them, her reasons were that it’s unnatural and “icky” and unnatural things like that should be banned for the same reasons we ban other forms of deviant sex acts. It’s essentially the exact same logic, it’s just an appeal to nature rather than to God. > > No, they’re not really at all alike. Abortion is an issue of at what point the child has rights, what those rights should be, and whether or not those rights can trump the mother’s. A lot of people appeal to religion to justify that the child is alive and should have rights from conception, but there are plenty of religious people who are pro-choice, and plenty of people who are not religious who believe that at least some limitations should be placed on abortion because they believe life begins before birth, just not at conception. > > Really, it seems to me like you’re ascribing all of these ideas you don’t like to religion and all the ones you agree with to atheism. Atheism isn’t pro-choice, it isn’t pro-life either; it has no opinion on the matter because it has nothing to do with it. All it means is that people who have opinions on it aren’t going to attribute those reasons to God. > > Religion isn’t being systematically persecuted, but there are people out there, like you, who have extremely prejudiced and bigotted views about religion. And the idea that you think people should be forcibly converted or killed makes you every bit as bad as all of the religious people who claimed the same thing. You are a hypocrite; you are guilty of EXACTLY the same sort of extremism and hate that you accuse the religious as a whole of. I’m not reading all of this.\* > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If the horseshoe fits… But what if it’s the wrong color? \*but i’ll sure as hell quote it to annoy people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710.md?page=3)