# YogSosoth **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710 "2012-01-16T17:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/81 "2012-01-25T17:33:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yes, I’m sure there are a number of atheists who are like that. […] That’s always the problem with these types of discussions, someone will inevitably pop up and say there are small numbers of people who don’t believe that way and you shouldn’t demonize the whole group. But my point is not that some religious individuals fail to meet your criteria for elimination. Rather a large proportion (in relative terms!) of atheists feel quite differently from you on a wide range of political issues. By opining that atheists merely want, say, to legalize prostitution rather than force anyone to _engage_ in it, you’re implicitly engaging in wishful thinking — that societal restrictions of the kind you do not favor originate from theism, while societal permissiveness originates from atheism. That is: I contend not so much that your favored policies would be unjust (although I believe that) but instead that they would be ineffective, because historically religiousness does not correlate as well with unreasonableness as you and others seem to believe. Indeed, you write > [@](#): > > Religion is pro-life, trying to force everyone to do it their way. Atheism is pro-choice, which makes you can either abort or NOT abortion. Even though by default, its like atheism telling people to do it their way, in practice, it means you have the freedom to choose to ultimately get an abortion or not. Atheism is not “pro-choice”. Going by the only definition reasonable for purposes of this thread (I am aware that others define it differently), atheism isn’t pro-_anything_ — atheism implies only lack of belief in god or gods. Your statement is like “academic English Literature is pro-choice”. By historical accident most literature professors are currently likely pro-choice, but it wasn’t always that way and need not continue to be that way forever. The upshot is that you’re letting atheism mean “qualities I like”. If you want to use death as a way to eliminate everything you seem to hate about religion, you’ll have to kill a lot of people who _aren’t_ religious — and you’ll probably have to keep people in perpetuity. > [@](#): > > Understand that my attack on religious people was a simple mechanism for the types of people who are of the pushy, extremist, evil type. If you personally don’t fall into that category, or know someone who doesn’t, feel free to assume that my ire isn’t directed at you, because it isn’t. While sympathetic to some varieties of theism I am not myself religious, so strictly speaking I would not qualify for your remedy. (Shew.) Great that you’re only for punishing the “pushy, extremist, evil” type, but since you seem to believe that even the mildest proselytizing qualifies someone for that label, I’m not sure how much that mitigates your bloodthirstiness. … Postscript: skimming over the original thread was an enlightening experience. More support than I would’ve imagined for tightly manipulated societies. I’m reminded how when I was about eleven I became convinced that the world would meet a terrible end unless a leader could be given absolute power. Life would be managed by committee — everyone would be assigned a career and provided education based on the result of testing; there would be dormitory-style living and no markets of any kind; and children, the quantity of which would meet a predetermined quota, would be taken from parents and raised as wards of the state. I see a lot of the eleven-year-old me in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/82 "2012-01-25T19:54:42Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > OK, I’ve got nothing new to add to what’s been said about the Pittee, but I want to jump on his shit, too, so here goes: Its ok. I see from your responses that you didn’t read the whole topic, many posts of which addressed specifically the problems you highlighted. I don’t blame you. Sometimes, when a topic is juicy, I want to just jump in and start adding my arguments without realizing that someone many have already addressed them. In those cases, I try to post that I only read the OP and am posting in response to that. You’ll learn too > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > But my point is not that some religious individuals fail to meet your criteria for elimination. Rather a large proportion (in relative terms!) of atheists feel quite differently from you on a wide range of political issues. By opining that atheists merely want, say, to legalize prostitution rather than force anyone to _engage_ in it, you’re implicitly engaging in wishful thinking — that societal restrictions of the kind you do not favor originate from theism, while societal permissiveness originates from atheism. > > … > The upshot is that you’re letting atheism mean “qualities I like”. If you want to use death as a way to eliminate everything you seem to hate about religion, you’ll have to kill a lot of people who _aren’t_ religious — and you’ll probably have to keep people in perpetuity. Feel free to then assume I’m only speaking for myself, as that other topic was asking. Am now not even allowed to say that I am atheist, and that based on my beliefs on what atheism entails, I believe certain things? To me, it matters only so much as these are my beliefs about what should be, not necessarily what they are (though I still think you’d have a majority of atheists as pro-choice than the opposite) > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > While sympathetic to some varieties of theism I am not myself religious, so strictly speaking I would not qualify for your remedy. (Shew.) Great that you’re only for punishing the “pushy, extremist, evil” type, but since you seem to believe that even the mildest proselytizing qualifies someone for that label, I’m not sure how much that mitigates your bloodthirstiness. I never said I wasn’t bloodthirsty ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/83 "2012-01-25T21:45:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Am now not even allowed to say that I am atheist, and that based on my beliefs on what atheism entails, I believe certain things? To me, it matters only so much as these are my beliefs about what should be, not necessarily what they are (though I still think you’d have a majority of atheists as pro-choice than the opposite) Your rights were never in question (by me, anyway, and I don’t think by anyone else). But whether you _can_ give voice to opinions about what atheism entails doesn’t imply that others should abstain from pointing out when such opinions are untrue. Frankly I’m not really sure how to parse the above paragraph except as something like “I believe it _should_ be the case that atheists are more reasonable than theists and thus that theists alone should be eliminated”. Which is fine, I guess, but if we’re going to operate in the realm of wishes then we may as well just wish that all theists would recant. > [@](#): > > I never said I wasn’t bloodthirsty I’m honestly not sure how you’re supposed to qualitatively differ from the theists you dislike so much … ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/84 "2012-01-25T23:30:52Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I’m honestly not sure how you’re supposed to qualitatively differ from the theists you dislike so much … I doubt he will understand that. As I said earlier, his atheism is based on emotion - not reason. I do not ever want to see him claim that atheists have a greater grasp of reason than theists do after the shit he has posted in this thread. He has given up any high ground he could ever have possibly have. He is so emotionally invested in his personal narrative of “us vs them” that he has lost all ability to reason and think straight. Shit, he may have never had that ability, as he can’t properly understand that neither his definitions of “us” nor “them” have any basis in fact. It’s an emotional response. I’m not sure we should really view him as “atheist”, though. His emotional need to have an “us and them” could very well have manifested itself in different ways, like PETA or conspiracy theories. Him latching on to “atheism” may have just been the luck of the draw. To put it simply: he’s just stupid and hateful, and I’m not sure it matters how he decides to dress that up. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/85 "2012-01-26T00:37:10Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Your rights were never in question (by me, anyway, and I don’t think by anyone else). But whether you _can_ give voice to opinions about what atheism entails doesn’t imply that others should abstain from pointing out when such opinions are untrue. Frankly I’m not really sure how to parse the above paragraph except as something like “I believe it _should_ be the case that atheists are more reasonable than theists and thus that theists alone should be eliminated”. Which is fine, I guess, but if we’re going to operate in the realm of wishes then we may as well just wish that all theists would recant. I didn’t say anything about rights. It was a point of contention that apparently you think I cannot state that as an atheist, I believe such and such, and extrapolate a condition based on that. If you have a problem with my interpretation of atheism, that seems to be a whole other topic altogether. I find it irrelevant in the context of the other topic for me to say “As an atheist, I believe…” compared with “I believe atheists are … therefore I believe…”. In a topic that’s titled Your Most Extreme Beliefs, surely having a specific interpretation of a belief system falls under that? But whatever, have it your way, it really matters little if you think my beliefs, or my beliefs on my beliefs, are correct or not. > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I’m honestly not sure how you’re supposed to qualitatively differ from the theists you dislike so much … The difference is I’d leave them alone if they left me alone. But they don’t. So fuck them Now cue 50 posts of discussion of you telling me that some random religious person somewhere would gladly ignore me :rolleyes: > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I doubt he will understand that. As I said earlier, his atheism is based on emotion - not reason. Don’t mistake passion for emotion. One can be emotionally invested in reason > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I do not ever want to see him claim that atheists have a greater grasp of reason than theists do after the shit he has posted in this thread. Atheists have always had a greater grasp of reason. Denying that fact doesn’t make you right, or reasonable 😃 > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > He has given up any high ground he could ever have possibly have. So long as I can still chop off your legs and one arm, I haven’t given up the high ground 😉 > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > He is so emotionally invested in his personal narrative of “us vs them” that he has lost all ability to reason and think straight. Shit, he may have never had that ability, as he can’t properly understand that neither his definitions of “us” nor “them” have any basis in fact. It’s an emotional response. I won’t deny that us/them doesn’t contain emotion, but I’d deny that its the sole aspect of it, and I assert that it is correct > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I’m not sure we should really view him as “atheist”, though. His emotional need to have an “us and them” could very well have manifested itself in different ways, like PETA or conspiracy theories. Him latching on to “atheism” may have just been the luck of the draw. Tell that to everyone suffering under the persecution of religion-based laws. Your problem is that you are simply mad at me, and because of that, you cannot or will not see the very real harm that religion has done and continues to do in this world, whether through archaic laws, idiotic traditions, or harmful action. That is religion’s legacy on the human race. Maybe things won’t be much better without religion, maybe mankind will find some other excuse to act like jackasses, but so long as religion is here and dicking up the place, I’m going to point out that its an negative influence > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > To put it simply: he’s just stupid and hateful, and I’m not sure it matters how he decides to dress that up. I may be stupid and hateful, but…wait what was that third thing you said? 😛 Oh yeah, what I meant to say was that it matters little what you think of me. Whatever attributes you think I deserve doesn’t mean religion isn’t wrong, isn’t harmful, or the worst thing that humanity has ever created. Call me names, but everything I say about religion is true and its practitioners need to be removed from society ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/86 "2012-01-26T00:52:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Your problem is that you are simply mad at me I’m not mad at you. I just think you’re stupid. Anger no longer comes in to it on my end. I don’t think you are stupid because you are an atheist, I just think you are hateful and stupid because that is the type of person you are - at least on this board. You have no allies left here. Your position is indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/87 "2012-01-26T01:51:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The difference is I’d leave them alone if they left me alone. But they don’t. So fuck them “But MOMMY!!! HE STARTED IT!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/88 "2012-01-26T02:57:35Z")
nm … (post being written. wrong key pressed) ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/89 "2012-01-26T17:14:38Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I didn’t say anything about rights. It was a point of contention that apparently you think I cannot state that as an atheist, I believe such and such, and extrapolate a condition based on that. What? I don’t think I understand what you’re getting at here. You _can_ state that as an atheist you believe such and such; depending on what “such and such” refers to you might be right and you might be wrong; but I believe in this case that you’re wrong. Surely you have no problem with the act of expressing disagreement? > [@](#): > > I find it irrelevant in the context of the other topic for me to say “As an atheist, I believe…” compared with "I believe atheists are … therefore I believe…”. I think we must be talking past each other if you feel that carries any weight as a response to me. You’ve put forth the position that theists should be eliminated and, when called out on it, expressed that we should all have realized from the start that you weren’t _really_ talking about theists as they exist in the real world — you were talking about anti- **YogSosoth** ists. But if that’s true, it just means you’re being silly as well as bloodthirsty. > [@](#): > > Now cue 50 posts of discussion of you telling me that some random religious person somewhere would gladly ignore me :rolleyes: I’ll give you a hundred dollars for every time I told you that “some random religious person somewhere would gladly ignore” you. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/90 "2012-01-26T22:56:28Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I’m not mad at you. I just think you’re stupid. Anger no longer comes in to it on my end. > > I don’t think you are stupid because you are an atheist, I just think you are hateful and stupid because that is the type of person you are - at least on this board. You have no allies left here. Your position is indefensible. If you weren’t so mad you’d have left this topic a long time ago. And really, making some stupid play at popularity by claiming I don’t have allies? Did I ever ask for any? Hell, in that topic, there are a lot of views more extreme than mine, mine’s hardly that atypical for those of us constantly persecuted by religious fanatics > [@Guinastasia](#): > > “But MOMMY!!! HE STARTED IT!!!” I welcome your retort to all other claims of self-defense. :rolleyes: If religious people want to convert me, force me to live under their sky father’s laws, or eliminate me and/or my beliefs based on their fairy tales, then I am completely justified in wishing they were dead. All self-defense is “But he started it first”, I’d caution you in taking a position to attack me that you cannot defend outside of this topic > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > What? I don’t think I understand what you’re getting at here. You _can_ state that as an atheist you believe such and such; depending on what “such and such” refers to you might be right and you might be wrong; but I believe in this case that you’re wrong. Surely you have no problem with the act of expressing disagreement? Sure, that’s fine. We disagree on what’s correct. No harm in that > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I think we must be talking past each other if you feel that carries any weight as a response to me. You’ve put forth the position that theists should be eliminated and, when called out on it, expressed that we should all have realized from the start that you weren’t _really_ talking about theists as they exist in the real world — you were talking about anti- **YogSosoth** ists. Theists are just an easy heuristic way to refer to those people. Theists are anti-YogSosothists. The exceptions are too little in number to refer to. Besides, I did state that if they were brainwashed into not believing in those things, I’d be perfectly fine in allowing them to live. > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > I’ll give you a hundred dollars for every time I told you that “some random religious person somewhere would gladly ignore” you. Ok. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/91 "2012-01-26T23:42:07Z")
This is just comedy now. It’s like watching a one legged cat try to bury a turd on a frozen lake. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/92 "2012-01-27T04:05:01Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > This is just comedy now. It’s like watching a one legged cat try to bury a turd on a frozen lake. Oh, it’s a turd all right. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710/93 "2012-01-27T17:48:49Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > This is just comedy now. It’s like watching a one legged cat try to bury a turd on a frozen lake. Wait a minute, a one-legged cat can’t bury a turd on a frozen lake! I’m on to you… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/yogsosoth/609710.md?page=4)