# You ain't never heard me speak, I gather. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455 "2005-01-06T21:16:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/41 "2005-01-07T16:44:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Despite what some might have one believe, schools tend to teach in the vernacular–and they always have. There will have been schools in some locales where speech was taught to some imagined Received English standard, but the majority of schools have simply presented rules of grammar (filtered by local dialect) to be echoed on tests and forgotten, just as they have taught algebra or history or any of the other subjects for which students have not seen an _immediate_ use. Actual Received English _speech_ has only been taught on rare occasions. Really? Do you have any cites for this? I ask because I went to three elementary schools in three states that all hired oddball teachers who spoke and taught in Standard American English (_Received_ English is British, my friend, and is not what anybody born here speaks) and expected their students to follow suit. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/42 "2005-01-07T16:46:48Z")
Ginger, you don’t know the half of it. If I had a quarter for every time someone told me I ‘talk funny’ or ‘proper’, I would have enough to fill a sock and beat someone with it. I get teased about the way I talk _to this very day_. These people are adults, in their early to mid-thirties, mind you. Fuck them. I refuse to dumb down the way I speak. [story time] After posting yesterday about Yat Gaw Mein, I was talking to the guys in the mailroom and a secretary about how much I miss the kind with the ketchup-y sauce. At first, they had no idea to what I was referring. After describing it a bit more, they both looked at each other and said, almost at the same time, that I was talking about ‘YOK-a-mee’ (yok rhymes with wok). I told them, no, I’m pretty sure I was talking about Yat Gaw Mein as I’ve ordered it enough times to know. They informed me that in Baltimore, it’s pronounced ‘yok-a-mee’. How on earth one gets ‘yok-a-mee’ from Yat Gaw Mein is beyond me. After quite a bit of laughter – at my expense, of course – I was given the names and locations of several take-out restaurants from which I could order ‘yok-a-mee’ [/story time] **Update** The mailroom guys and the secretary (she’s 50, by the way) just stopped by to hear me say Yat Gaw Mein. I happily obliged. We’re probably all pronouncing it incorrectly. Does anyone know the correct pronunciation? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/43 "2005-01-07T16:55:14Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Ahem. “Those who,” not “those that.” But you knew that, right? I am so sorry, all knowing Grammar goddess, I wronged you and made errors. Forgive my impertinence, obviously those that make such errors are worms and all things they know are void. We shall grovel before you and share your all-encompassing knowledge, and bathe in the sweet light of perfection! Verily I say this unto you, you know you have lost when the only thing you can bring against an opponent is typing or grammar errors. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/44 "2005-01-07T17:00:17Z")
If we want to get onto grammar usage however, Mrs Shayna, since when is it ok to start a sentance with “but?” ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/45 "2005-01-07T17:00:34Z")
People judge you a million ways from Sunday based on how you look, how you dress, and how you speak. It’s reality. Does it suck? Sure. But does that change anything? No. Wishing the world to be other than it is does not make it that way. Does it suck that people automatically assume those who use “axe,” “where you at,” and “we was” lack something intellectually? Yes, yes it does. But people do, regardless. I also have to question those who use such constructions in situations where others will judge them because of it. If you are in situations where it is important that others have a positive view of you, don’t be surprised if that view is harmed by using non-standard English. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/46 "2005-01-07T17:06:54Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Verily I say this unto you, you know you have lost when the only thing you can bring against an opponent is typing or grammar errors. But… you’re entire argument is based on pointing out the grammar errors of others. Considering which side of the discussion you’re on, I don’t think you’ve got any right to go copping an attitude like that. **Shayna** ’s post makes an entirely valid point: you only object to grammatical errors when they are a feature of a dialect of English you don’t speak. The errors that are part of your own dialect, you ignore. Also, I’ve never worked a day in the service industry, thank God. Every job I’ve ever had has been in a technical field. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/47 "2005-01-07T17:09:38Z")
My argument? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/48 "2005-01-07T17:13:11Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > I can’t understand many inner-city black and hispanic people. Is it a dialect or a different language? For that matter, I sometimes have a hard time understanding some British and Austrailian movies, especially the ones that include things like cockney accents or other non-standard English. **GingerOfTheNorth** says that she had a hard time understanding native Baltimorians. So I guess they speak their own language? We’re getting into a hijack, but it’s a valid question. In fact, there is no clear, bright line between dialect and language or distinguishing pidgin, creole, and language. Similarly, as I’ve said in another thread, there is no precise altitude at which Earth’s atmosphere ends and outer space begins, just as there’s no magic moment where childhood ends and adulthood begins. Nevertheless, it is still meaningful to speak of dialects and languages, atmosphere and space, and children and adults. The world is often squooshy. Language, too. 🙂 I don’t know of any linguist who would claim a “language” distinction based pronunciation and a small percentage of vocabulary, as long as the core vocabulary and syntax are shared. There is a dialect in certain zones of the southern part of a country I used to live in that I had a very hard time understanding, for example, but once I got used to the pronunciation of the vowels and certain consonants and certain differences in vocabulary, I had no problem following it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/49 "2005-01-07T17:14:42Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > My argument? > [@Epimetheus](#): > > Everybody makes mistakes fool, it is those that don’t learn from them and deliberately wallow in feces that deserve contempt. Not much of an argumet, obviously, but you’ve put forward a thesis and seem to be making a clumsy attempt to defend it, so I’d say it counts. For very broad definitions of the word “argument,” at least. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/50 "2005-01-07T17:14:52Z")
I see now, by the way, it is your, not you’re. 😛 J/K! I know I am not the best at grammar, but I am not saying that only those that are perfect at it are right. I am saying that those that make mistakes and learn from them are different than those that deliberately misuse the language. We can debate all day about a right way and a wrong way, and I certainly don’t think slang should be thrown out, like the others said, it has a time and a place. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/51 "2005-01-07T17:16:39Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > My argument? Good point. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/52 "2005-01-07T17:17:32Z")
Oh, go eat or fuck your dog or whatever sample means in your username, dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/53 "2005-01-07T17:18:52Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Oh, go eat or fuck your dog or whatever sample means in your username, dipshit. Look, I know this is the pit, but that’s out of line. Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/54 "2005-01-07T17:23:59Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > Look, I know this is the pit, but that’s out of line. Just sayin’… Oh? So what is “in” line in the pit? Your the pecker that came in and did the smarmy rolleyes on me when I was asking a question to another user. I don’t see how a person can find a whole argument in one sentance about wallowing in ignorance, and I was trying to figure out what HE thought my “argument” was. Happy? Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![booka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@booka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booka)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/55 "2005-01-07T17:24:53Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Oh, go eat or fuck your dog or whatever sample means in your username, dipshit. YAHOOOOEYYY! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/56 "2005-01-07T17:25:00Z")
Geez, the Your wasn’t a joke, bad typo to have after pointing out somebody elses misuse of it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/57 "2005-01-07T17:33:09Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Oh? So what is “in” line in the pit? > > Your the pecker that came in and did the smarmy rolleyes on me when I was asking a question to another user. I don’t see how a person can find a whole argument in one sentance about wallowing in ignorance, and I was trying to figure out what HE thought my “argument” was. > > Happy? Go fuck yourself. Posted, incidentally, well before you decided to act like a jackass to **Sample**. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/58 "2005-01-07T17:33:15Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > I am so sorry, all knowing Grammar goddess, I wronged you and made errors. Forgive my impertinence, obviously **those that** make such errors are worms and all things they know are void. We shall grovel before you and share your all-encompassing knowledge, and bathe in the sweet light of perfection! > > Verily I say this unto you, you know you have lost when the only thing you can bring against an opponent is typing or grammar errors. I believe you have me mistaken for someone else, as your point is exactly the one which I am attempting to make with **Joe Random**. He has characterized anyone **who** doesn’t speak (or type) perfectly correct English as “willfully stupid,” yet he, himself, can be found not using perfectly correct English grammar. While I amdit that there are those errors that, when others make them I cringe (mixing up ‘then’ and ‘than’, saying “all the sudden” (shudder), etc.), I would hardly classify **those who** make those errors as stupid, let alone willfully so. > [@Epimetheus](#): > > J/K! I know I am not the best at grammar, but I am not saying that only \*\*those that \*\* are perfect at it are right. I am saying that \*\*those that \*\* make mistakes and learn from them are different than \*\*those that \*\* deliberately misuse the language. We can debate all day about a right way and a wrong way, and I certainly don’t think slang should be thrown out, like the others said, it has a time and a place. Those **who**. Those **who**. Those **WHO**! I am _only_ driving this point home to you now because _you_ keep repeating the point about **those WHO** learn from mistakes being different **from** (by the way) **those WHO** keep repeating mistakes in the face of knowing the proper usage. I have now told you no fewer than 3 times that it is “those **who** ,” yet you continue to use “those **that.** ” What conclusion shall we draw about _you_, then? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/59 "2005-01-07T17:39:45Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Oh? So what is “in” line in the pit? > > Your the pecker that came in and did the smarmy rolleyes on me when I was asking a question to another user. I don’t see how a person can find a whole argument in one sentance about wallowing in ignorance, and I was trying to figure out what HE thought my “argument” was. > > Happy? Go fuck yourself. I am not an admin, but my understanding is that “smarmy rolleyes” are ok. Yes, I did intend to give you a dig precisely because I agreed with what seemed to be your assessment – that you weren’t contributing any argument to this thread. (Your post following the “My argument?” post had not yet appeared when I composed my reply.) What I believe is out of line is this: [ul] [li]Using personal insults against other Dopers (I’ve been spanked for this before, btw, so I’m no Mother Teresa here, admittedly)[/li][li]Gratuitous and repeated use of profanity aimed at other Dopers[/li][/ul] This is, after all, an online “community”. Maybe the mods will clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455/60 "2005-01-07T17:42:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Posted, incidentally, well before you decided to act like a jackass to **Sample**. Yeah, pretty much the reason I acted like a jackass to him in the first place. We had already dealt with the issue and he still came in acting like a jerk. I suppose doing the same in return was in poor form, and I do feel guilty for it, an appolgy then? **Shayna** : I am a slow learner? I definately wouldn’t disagree with that. Anyhow, “those that” even when referring to people seems to be generally acceptable. It is used in newspapers and books constantly, though possibly incorrect. Perhaps that is why I don’t seem to be grasping it well. Anyhow, I never said I wasn’t one of the people that deserve contempt. Just because I am a bad person, doesn’t mean I can’t point out that it isn’t a good thing to be a bad person. That make any sense? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-aint-never-heard-me-speak-i-gather/283455.md?page=4)