"You are bad and you should feel bad about it" - a core Christian belief?

[Biffster]

@ISiddiqui

Did you act like a jerk to a family member for no reason? Did you turn away when asked to help the poor and needy, even though you had money to spend? Did you be silent when someone you knew made racist comments?

Now granted, these may be considered not living up to a religious rule, but I think our consciousness do inform us that some of this stuff just ain’t right. And hopefully we feel shitty about doing so. Also, granted, this is someone from the outside proclaiming that these self-interested actions are sinful and miss the mark (maybe the person doesn’t feel bad about being an ass), but so?

I agree; I would find these actions abhorrent. On the other hand, racism and xenophobia are alive and well in our society. Far too many people find it acceptable to say disparaging things about members of societal subgroups, such as Muslims, Syrian refugees, African-Americans and First Nations people. I’d call it a sin, but many religious people will defend to the death their right to hold such views, citing freedom of speech.

[Bricker]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

I see your point – but the OP did say: “So, what’s your view? It would be great if, when replying, you let me know if you’re a Christian, and whether you belong to a particular denomination. I’d be interested to get a sense of if there’s a denominational split in how people answer. But I appreciate your reply, regardless.”
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Is it asking so much, for Jews to get badmouthed with so small a caveat?

No, no, I certainly understand the impulse. And it’s absolutely valid to point out that Jesus would have been a blasephemer from the point of view of the Sanhedrin.

But of course from the point of view of an atheist, it’s merely a conflict between two unsupportable sets of beliefs, with neither enjoying anything close to sufficient evidence of truth.

[carnivorousplant]

@Biffster

Thanks for the link, but it still begs the question: can you be found guilty of breaking a law that you had no knowledge of? Doesn’t “sin” require intention? If idolatry and craven images are a sin, why is there a crucifix with a Corpus Christi up front and centre in every Catholic Church in the word, for example?

Some Rabbis sat up late one night and figured out some fine print that Christians were not idolators, and Jews could do business with them.

I don’t know the answer in Judaism about ignorance, but perhaps it is covered by the rule that you can break any rules to save a life except for incest (I think they mean rape) and murder. I was a Methodist for a while, and I imagine that there ignorance is no excuse no matter what your religious belief or lack thereof.

This is a good place to rant about arranging my Mother’s Methodist funeral. The Pastor wanted something to tell jokes about. I explained that for Jews, death was a horrible thing and nothing to joke about. He became quite angry, and called me an Unbeliever.

[truthseeker3]

@Biffster

You see, sin must involve a choice to not follow the rules of a particular religion; but if you have no awareness of any religious rules to begin with, how on earth do you “miss the mark”? How is it possible to sin?

@Biffster

can you be found guilty of breaking a law that you had no knowledge of? Doesn’t “sin” require intention?

I don’t know about other religions, but that is true in catholic theology:

Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

(from the CCC)
However, even if you successfully argue for immunity from the commandments involving God, there are still half a dozen others (murder, theft, etc) that atheists are perfectly capable of understanding and following.

[Biffster]

@truthseeker3

I don’t know about other religions, but that is true in catholic theology:

(from the CCC)

However, even if you successfully argue for immunity from the commandments involving God, there are still half a dozen others (murder, theft, etc) that atheists are perfectly capable of understanding and following.

Good point.

[Melbourne]

@Tom_Tildrum

Different sects obviously have different views, but Martin Luther had a more positive take on the matter: “Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.” Basically, don’t strive to be perfect – because you can’t be – and trust Christ to save you, whether you deserve it or not.

Yes, I was wondering if the OP was more a RC point of view (what with the Sacrement of Penance).

In my branchs of protestant theology, the statement would be "You are bad, and you should feel good that God likes you anyway*.

*Only given the substitutionary atonement through the grace of God.
FWIW, given the other argument in this thread, this is an anecdotal theologal statement: Sin is voluntary seperation from God. As such, it is it’s own punishment. It may be destructive, or self-distructive, but that’s not the core theological point.

[truthseeker3]

Hmmm… I would have said the opposite. One of the points of conflict between catholics and protestants is faith vs works. The Church teaches salvation by grace (where grace equals faith plus works, as in James); but many protestants (and, yes, a few catholics :smack: ) think the Church teaches salvation by works. So many protestant sects go off on how inferior we are to God to emphasize the impossibility of salvation by works.

BTW, I think Christus Victor (mentioned by Isiddiqui in post #67) is closer to what I was taught about atonement; one acclamation that often gets sung in mass is “Dying you destroyed our death. Rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus come again!”