# You are forced to become either Hasidic or Amish. Which do you choose? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906 "2011-09-11T02:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/21 "2011-09-11T13:11:06Z")
Is belief a required part of this setup–that is, will I be brainwashed into a belief in one sect or the other? WHat happens if I violate the rules of the sect–should I assume that it’ll be so terrible that I’d never conceive of doing it? Because the Amish are heavily anti-evangelical: they think the rest of us are going to hell, and that’s A-OK with them. They don’t WANT more Amish. They’d kick me out in a heartbeat if I made a snarky anti-religious joke, and you can bet I’d do that unless I were brainwashed or unless my family were going to be murdered if I broke the rules or something. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/22 "2011-09-11T13:45:09Z")
Hasidic. No one will try to make me believe anything (even that there is a god); all I have to do is obey their rules. I already have a beard so I have to wear their clothes. Annoying, but WTF. I never thought they had any politics except they don’t recognize the state of Israel. They certainly don’t speak Hebrew (that’s one of their beefs with Israel). They won’t use the sacred language for profane things. Most do speak Yiddish (not that far from the German the Amish speak) but as I pass them on the street I more and more hear English. The clothes would be unpleasant, especially in the summer. But I am too old to go on and have a dozen kids. I know two Hasidim who are professors of mathematics, one a good mathematician and I see one on campus who is a professor of CS (I think). So they are–or can be–fully into the modern world. Someone said at least you could dance. Yes, but not with your wife. I went to an orthodox (but not Hasidic) wedding a few weeks ago and there was loads of dancing, but the men danced only with men and the women with women. In fact the banquet hall was divided in two by a curtain with the men on one side and the women on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/23 "2011-09-11T13:50:33Z")
Amish, baby. Lots better food, and cooler clothes in summertime. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/24 "2011-09-11T14:33:39Z")
The Hasidics most assuredly would not accept me as one of their own, given that my parents aren’t Jewish. My friend dated a Jewish boy in high school. His mother was openly hostile to her, even though it was just a stupid high school romance. And they weren’t even orthodox. Amish would be very, very difficult but at least I feel I have a shot at eventually being embraced into their society. Maybe not, though, because I’d have to sneak deodorant. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/25 "2011-09-11T15:25:36Z")
I’m a City Girl, so Hasidic. I have noticed that there is a very fine line between Hasidic women and hipster women: they both dress kind of like Donna Reed. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/26 "2011-09-11T15:35:59Z")
The Amish believe in informed self-choice in religion, religious noncoercion, and separation of Church and State. If I was “forced” to become Amish, particularly by the government, they would probably be very sympathetic to my situation, maybe even consider it their duty to assist me in my charade. I don’t think the Hasids would care too much if I was coerced into joining. Since I’m Jewish, they would probably prefer it, actually. The Amish believe a lot of things I don’t believe, but they also hold fewer beliefs I consider completely nutty. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/27 "2011-09-11T15:44:54Z")
Hasidic. Family’s Jewish (though I’m an atheist), so it’s not nearly as huge a leap for me. Plus, I’m a city guy - I could put up with a lot if it meant I got to live in NYC, but Amish country would drive me nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/28 "2011-09-11T15:46:02Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > The Amish believe a lot of things I don’t believe, but they also hold fewer beliefs I consider completely nutty. I donno. I’d say they are pretty similar, except the Amish believe in the resurrection of a dead guy named Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/29 "2011-09-11T15:46:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d go with the Amish. I don’t like Hasidic politics. How so? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/30 "2011-09-11T16:35:54Z")
I can’t bear the idea of not living in the city, and wearing a wig would be slightly preferable to wearing that Little House on the Prairie thing that Amish women wear, so I guess I’d go with the Hasidim. But I don’t think I’d be real happy either way. A woman who doesn’t want to marry or have kids and is not a domesticate is considered useless in both societies. Living off the land and working with your hands has its charm, but I don’t think I’d like to live like that every day. And not being encouraged to be educated and being unable to speak my mind, other than within constrained contexts (like child-rearing)…and having to be married to a man with curly fries jutting out from the sides of his head…that would work my nerves as well. Also, from a racial stand-point I’d be messed-up inside. I know there are some black Amish folk, but I’m not thinking there are a whole heap of them. Don’t mind being the only black person at work, but I really wouldn’t want to stick out like a sore thumb ALL the time. And I have no idea if there are black Hasidic folk or not. I’m not thinking there, but I could be wrong. Either way, I know that both cultures are rife with enough racists as to make my adventure with either of them unpleasant affairs. However, if I decided to break away from the Hasidim, at least I wouldn’t be so isolated and sheltered about the ways of the world that I would be lost. But the Amish are so culturally and geographical isolated that there would be justifiable fear of setting off on my own. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/31 "2011-09-11T16:39:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I donno. I’d say they are pretty similar, except the Amish believe in the resurrection of a dead guy named Jesus. Chasids persist in believing Manachim Schneerson was moshiach, which is far, far nuttier. Schneerson died in 1994. Have you noticed any world peace breaking out? ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/32 "2011-09-11T16:52:01Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Chasids persist in believing Manachim Schneerson was moshiach, which is far, far nuttier. Schneerson died in 1994. Have you noticed any world peace breaking out? That’s only a small subset of Lubavitchers. No other Hasidic sect believes this and in fact it is considered borderline if not outright heresy. If I had to join a sect, I’d pick Amshinov. Their rebbe seems very cool. He prays so slowly and intently that he doesn’t end Shabbos until Tuesday, but no one else is expected to do that. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/33 "2011-09-11T17:37:43Z")
PunditLisa: > [@](#): > > The Hasidics most assuredly would not accept me as one of their own, given that my parents aren’t Jewish. My friend dated a Jewish boy in high school. His mother was openly hostile to her, even though it was just a stupid high school romance. And they weren’t even orthodox. There’s quite a difference in acceptance between converting to Judaism and trying to marry (or romance, which parents will no doubt see as a step in the direction of marriage) into a Jewish family without taking the step of becoming Jewish. I assure you that no Hasid will consider a genuine convert to be unacceptable as a member of the community. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/34 "2011-09-11T17:48:33Z")
Do either prohibit the playing of piano or acoustic guitar? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/35 "2011-09-11T17:53:19Z")
I will join no religion that does not treat women equally as men. So neither and you can’t make me. ---
**Author:** ![MeinView](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@MeinView](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeinView)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/36 "2011-09-11T18:20:37Z")
Amish because you can still think for yourself whereas for the Hasidic Jew the rabbi does all the thinking for them. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/37 "2011-09-11T19:05:00Z")
This was a tough one. I reject all patriarchal stuff. But for the purpose of playing along with the highly contrived setup… I went with Hasidic, even though I’m descended in small part from early Pennsylvania German ancestry (mostly Catholic) and I have zero Jewish ancestry. The crucial consideration is that I could not do without my intellectual life. Even though I cannot stand the thought of wearing a wig-- I imagine I’d go crazy and tear it off screaming and fling it away as hard as I could within the first half hour of trying to wear it-- and wearing a bonnet would bother me not at all-- the lack of intellectualism in Amish society would be the deal breaker. Moreover, I’ve been a Jew-lover my whole life, I grew up in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, and Jewish culture is familiar to me. Rural German-American culture is completely foreign to me. I like latkes much better than shoofly pie. I don’t know, I see lots of Orthodox women wearing those hijab things instead of wigs; are there any Hasidic groups that allow you to substitute scarves for wigs? [Jewish hijabs are really pretty.](http://hijabchique.blogspot.com/2008/11/tichels-introduction.html) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/38 "2011-09-11T19:14:59Z")
Johanna: > [@](#): > > I don’t know, I see lots of Orthodox women wearing those hijab things instead of wigs; are there any Hasidic groups that allow you to substitute scarves for wigs? Jewish hijabs are really pretty. Do you mean snoods? Or turbans? The wig is very much not a specific requirement, what matters is that the hair is covered, it’s a sight reserved for the woman’s husband. (and single women aren’t required to cover their hair at all) Most of those who choose to wear a wig do so because they feel it’s fancier than the other types of head-covering, which they’d be pretty likely to wear around the house rather than out on the town. I and my wife are not Hasidim, but she prefers the look of a wig in public, but will wear a snood if she’d not in the mood to comb out the wig. My brother and sister-in-law are Hasidic, and she almost always wears a turban, I think the only time I ever saw her in a wig was at my sister’s wedding. There’s plenty of choice and fashion in the area of head-coverings for married Orthodox Jewish (Hasidic or otherwise) women. As long as it stays covered in the company of non-related men. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/39 "2011-09-11T19:42:50Z")
FWIW, the OP’s description of ‘Hasidic’ could be just about anybody Orthodox, setting aside the men’s clothing. Among other things, Hasidic groups have as little contact with the outside world as possible (no TV, no internet (although people cheat secretly), no newspapers other than Jewish ones approved by the leaders of your sect, little socialization outside your sect), _rigid_ gender segregation, little/no secular education (especially for boys, who may not even learn English until adulthood), certainly no higher education, and punctilious obedience of the leader of your sect in all matters, be they religious or not. Everybody’s married at 17-8 (girls) or 18-20 (boys) after one or two meetings with the future spouse. Large families are very much the norm. Presumably Johanna means scarves rather than snoods or turbans. They’re not really hijab-ish, in that they don’t cover the neck/breasts, but they’re made from a single piece of cloth, generally square or rectangular. Scarves (aka tichels (Yiddish) or mitpachot (Hebrew) aren’t generally worn in the Hasidic community - they’re mostly seen as either Israeli or more modern. I tend to wear scarves in the summer and hats in the winter, although I have a wig for very formal occasions; I am _definitely_ not Hasidic. ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906/40 "2011-09-11T19:50:37Z")
This is a rough question, as women get treated pretty badly in both cultures. If a gender change would not be part of the forced conversion deal, I’d probably choose Amish, because their knowledge of farming and comparative self-sufficiency will be useful in a post-apocalyptic, post-technological society. (I’m assuming that imminent doom is behind the forced converstions.) However, I’d start an underground women’s education circle, and smuggle in my vast library of books on almost all subjects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-forced-to-become-either-hasidic-or-amish-which-do-you-choose/595906.md?page=3)