# You are not free. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410 "2004-10-09T22:41:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/1 "2004-10-09T22:41:39Z")
It just occured to me that you’re not free. A contest to decide who gets to run the imaginary thing called a ‘country’ on a landmass given a name is a central thing in all your lives right now and you have little say on the fact. Right now, most of you are defined by who you want as president and whether your supported a war in another far off imaginary ‘country’. You are defined by your country’s culture. Free people are not. If you strive for freedom you are striving for anarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/2 "2004-10-09T22:44:51Z")
Well, there ought to be limits to freedom, after all. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/3 "2004-10-09T23:03:26Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > It just occured to me that you’re not free. A contest to decide who gets to run the imaginary thing called a ‘country’ on a landmass given a name is a central thing in all your lives right now and you have little say on the fact. > > Right now, most of you are defined by who you want as president and whether your supported a war in another far off imaginary ‘country’. You are defined by your country’s culture. Free people are not. > > If you strive for freedom you are striving for anarchy. First, on what do you base the statement that “most of [us] are defined by who [we] want as president”? I think that generally that statement is false. Maybe it’s what most people are yelling about at the moment, but as to whether it or an opinion of it ‘defines’ most people, well, I think you’ll have to support that with something. And, _one_ definition of freedom might mean anarchy, but I know that in an anarchy I would be much less free to go about my day without the fear of being jumped, mugged, robbed, beaten, or killed. So, in that way government helps me to be more free. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/4 "2004-10-10T00:05:00Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > and you have little say on the fact. Well, we can vote. One vote may not count for much but (ideally) all votes are equal. > [@](#): > > Right now, most of you are defined by who you want as president and whether your supported a war in another far off imaginary ‘country’. I doubt that anyone is _defined_ by that, although some of the more ardent politicos are consumed by it. > [@](#): > > You are defined by your country’s culture. Free people are not. Americans are no different than other cultures in that respect. If anything, they are more free since there is more cultural diversity than some other countries. > [@](#): > > If you strive for freedom you are striving for anarchy. Yes, if we want total freedom we would have to have an anarchy. What’s the debate? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/5 "2004-10-10T02:33:54Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > If you strive for freedom you are striving for anarchy. Anarchy is the freedom for the strong to dominate the weak. Now go peddle crazy somewhere else. We’re all stocked up here. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/6 "2004-10-10T02:41:43Z")
That’s why Somalia is such a paradise, hmmm? P.J. O’Rourke had a chapter on it in one of his early 90’s books. A anarchist paradise–no government at all. Trouble is, ruthless bastards with guns ended up running everything. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/7 "2004-10-10T02:51:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, there ought to be limits to freedom, after all. 😛 _George W. Bush, at a press conference, May 1999_ ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/8 "2004-10-10T02:55:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, we can vote. One vote may not count for much but (ideally) all votes are equal. You completely missed my point. We have little choice in the way we think. Currently our (or in this case your) thoughts are defined by the issues of your country’s govornment at the time. A stranger to you will not wonder what kind of ice-cream you like. He will wonder whether you are a republican or a democrat, whether you supported or were against the war in iraq. > [@](#): > > Yes, if we want total freedom we would have to have an anarchy. > What’s the debate? If you love freedom and loathe the idea of anarchy then there is a conflict. Also, freedom doesn’t exist. And your president doesn’t want anarchy, so why does he use the idea of freedom to defend his actions. The whole world can see the bullshit. Potus and us foreign policy is one huge hypocracy and the whole world can see it. But the spark for the thread had nothing to do with any particular country. It’s difficult to put into words. It just clicked that no-one is free. We are all drones who have virtually no choice in what thoughts are swilling around in their heads. It’s all put there by our 24-hour news corporate trivial lifestyle. It’s hard, and rare, to _see_ (not just ‘know’) that there is more to life than ‘issues’. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/9 "2004-10-10T02:57:30Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > That’s why Somalia is such a paradise, hmmm? > > P.J. O’Rourke had a chapter on it in one of his early 90’s books. A anarchist paradise–no government at all. Trouble is, ruthless bastards with guns ended up running everything. I’m not saying anarchy is good. (IMO a succesful communist govornment, which I am not arguing the possibility of, is the best situation) just that freedom is just a stupid word to use so much. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/10 "2004-10-10T03:00:37Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > First, on what do you base the statement that “most of [us] are defined by who [we] want as president”? I think that generally that statement is false. Maybe it’s what most people are yelling about at the moment, but as to whether it or an opinion of it ‘defines’ most people, well, I think you’ll have to support that with something. Sorry, I didn’t mean all the time. I meant currently. The fact that the choosing of a president is occupying a large chunk of the brains of most of it’s country’s people shows that those people are not fully free. they don’t have freedom of thought. > [@](#): > > And, _one_ definition of freedom might mean anarchy, but I know that in an anarchy I would be much less free to go about my day without the fear of being jumped, mugged, robbed, beaten, or killed. So, in that way government helps me to be more free. Not FREE! SAFE. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/11 "2004-10-10T03:04:37Z")
My idea of what ‘freedom’ is, is that you are not tied to anything. You have total choice in what you are linked to. In most countries people are tied down by thousands of little things. Laws, thoughts, preferences, knowledge, personality. Countries _make_ people. They define the personality of their population. Take one example: Americans are noticeably more conservative than other western countries. That’s not by accident. That’s because their country made them that way. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/12 "2004-10-10T03:21:37Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > My idea of what ‘freedom’ is, is that you are not tied to anything. You have total choice in what you are linked to. In most countries people are tied down by thousands of little things. Laws, thoughts, preferences, knowledge, personality. Countries _make_ people. They define the personality of their population. Take one example: Americans are noticeably more conservative than other western countries. That’s not by accident. That’s because their country made them that way. Hey sorry that you don’t live in a vacuum but living with PEOPLE shapes the way you think. But you are free to think and do what you like. Just don’t expect that other people have to agree with you or that they will support you should you choose not to work. Anyhow there is a place for rants and it aint here. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/13 "2004-10-10T03:27:55Z")
This isn’t a rant. > [@](#): > > Hey sorry that you don’t live in a vacuum but living with PEOPLE shapes the way you think. Until we grow up, true. But for adults, not true. For adults, in a modern western country, media, direct and indirect, shape the way we think. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/14 "2004-10-10T03:54:51Z")
OP requries greater coherence. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/15 "2004-10-10T03:57:43Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > OP requries greater coherence. OP agrees. Sorry folks. This was not one of my better ideas. (well the ‘idea’ was ok. it’s the putting it into words that went south) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/16 "2004-10-10T03:59:10Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > A contest to decide who gets to run the imaginary thing called a ‘country’ on a landmass given a name is a central thing in all your lives right now and you have little say on the fact. And how could a republican government for a country this size be designed, and give us citizens more say in leadership decisions than we have now? Please explain your answer in great detail, because I am very, very interested in that question. But a “country” is not an “imaginary” concept. It is very, very real in a lot of ways which should be far to obvious to require explanation. > [@Lobsang](#): > > You are defined by your country’s culture. Free people are not. That is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/17 "2004-10-10T04:05:15Z")
_Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose…_ ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/18 "2004-10-10T04:07:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But a “country” is not an “imaginary” concept. It is very, very real in a lot of ways which should be far to obvious to require explanation. It’s territory. Territoriy is not a real physical thing, it’s just a name for ownership of space. Ownership is a construct of the human mind. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/19 "2004-10-10T04:13:54Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > It’s territory. Territoriy is not a real physical thing, it’s just a name for ownership of space. Ownership is a construct of the human mind. A **country** is a real thing, **Lobsang.** Even an ethnocultural **nation** with no fixed territory – like the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks, any of the nations that wandered around Europe after the fall of Rome until they finally settled down – is a very, very real social, cultural, and political entity. There are those who belong to it, and those who do not. And it’s all the more real when it becomes tied to a definite national territory and becomes a country/nation-state. And, I repeat: It is not true that “free people” are not defined by the culture of their country. **All** people, free or slave, are defined by the culture that produced them. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410/20 "2004-10-10T04:19:54Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > It just occured to me that you’re not free. A contest to decide who gets to run the imaginary thing called a ‘country’ on a landmass given a name is a central thing in all your lives right now and you have little say on the fact. > > Right now, most of you are defined by who you want as president and whether your supported a war in another far off imaginary ‘country’. You are defined by your country’s culture. Free people are not. > > If you strive for freedom you are striving for anarchy. Yeah, yeah. I _am_ striving for anarchy, but in the mean time, whilst waiting for the Grand Transformation and the End of Hierarchy, I find in my nation’s Presidential politics the equivalent of what other folks apparently find in football and baseball games. (If you have a meaningful contribution to make towards the establishment of a functional anarchy in our time, by all means make it, though) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-not-free/268410.md?page=2)