# You are on my jury - do you convict? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278 "2014-10-03T15:02:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/21 "2014-10-03T17:28:00Z")
Are these real facts? > [@llcoolbj77](#): > > I will add that my jurisdiction does not recognize battered women’s syndrome, itself, as a stand alone illness and/or justification for imperfect self defense. I vote to convict on murder in the first on this basis. Were it recognized in your jurisdiction and adequate relevant testimony elicted, I vote to exonerate on all charges. If not for the final execution shot I would have gone with voluntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/22 "2014-10-03T17:28:46Z")
I couldn’t/shouldn’t be on the jury. I know battered women and I can’t be objective in this situation. I have no patience nor sympathy for men who beat their wives. If one day she snaps and kills his sorry ass, he asked for it and it’s no great loss. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/23 "2014-10-03T17:32:18Z")
Not guilty by reason of self-defense ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/24 "2014-10-03T17:34:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What jurisdiction uses “not able to cognitively evaluate the threat and make the right choice” as the standard for insanity? None. That was poorly worded. We are in the same jurisdiction, btw. Virginia’s NGRI standards are terrible, but its still a question of fact to be resolved by the jury, meaning they have to be persuaded by the doctor’s testimony. We would argue that her years of abuse and PTSD led her to believe the threat was still imminent after he stopped choking her because her heightened fight or flight response prevented her from rational thought. In that moment, her biochemistry prevented her from understanding right from wrong. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/25 "2014-10-03T17:35:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are these real facts? > > I vote to convict on murder in the first on this basis. Were it recognized in your jurisdiction and adequate relevant testimony elicted, I vote to exonerate on all charges. > > If not for the final execution shot I would have gone with voluntary manslaughter. yes. real facts. real case. set for jury in November. i’m doing this as a jury pool experiment. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/26 "2014-10-03T17:36:27Z")
> [@grude](#): > > You shoot someone in the head and they collapse, at this point they are no longer a threat. Want to bet? I was unfortunately an eye-witness to the conflict in Yugoslavia during the early 1990s. I have seen people take enormous amounts of damage, including shots to the head, and still be alive enough briefly to harm another person. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/27 "2014-10-03T17:37:46Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > What is her Personality Disorder? If she has Histrionic PD, then she tends to over-react to stressful situations, and this could be an example of it, but I don’t know if that is a mitigating factor or not. If she has Schizotypal PD, she has trouble reading facial expressions and social cues, which would explain why she thinks his gurgling is laughter, and truly think he is about to get up and attack her for hurting him-- although, not necessarily very badly; she may also have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy, and not appreciate the finality of death. If she had Borderline PD, she tends to engage in attention-seeking behaviors, and might attack her husband as a cry for help, or she may not really believe anything bad can happen to her, and may enjoy the attention of being “the woman who shot her husband”; that very fact has to be taken into account in assessing her motivation. [There are several other PD-- I won’t list them all.](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/personalitydisorders.html) > > My point is, saying “She has a personality disorder” is meaningless without specifying which one she has. It’s like saying she’s “neuro-sensory impaired,” without specifying whether she is deaf, blind, unable to smell, or insensitive to touch. Sorry. Not a doctor here. She has diagnosed PTSD and Borderline personality disorder, NOS. She shows extreme anxiety and paranoia. She’s one of those women you meet and think, boy she’s crazy… but you can’t really put your finger on why. Serious daddy issues. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/28 "2014-10-03T17:37:54Z")
Not guilty. He is in the process of trying to kill her. We all seem to be assuming that he was trying to get out the front door, but we have no reason to believe that. She has every reason to believe that he is still trying to kill her. The fact that she tucks the children away is a testimony to her terror and belief that he is still a threat. He is in predator mode, and she ends the situation appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/29 "2014-10-03T17:41:56Z")
> [@Sahirrnee](#): > > I couldn’t/shouldn’t be on the jury. > > I know battered women and I can’t be objective in this situation. > > I have no patience nor sympathy for men who beat their wives. If one day she snaps and kills his sorry ass, he asked for it and it’s no great loss. I spent two years volunteering at my local YWCA safe house which housed dozens of DV survivors, plus seven years as a rape crisis counselor and I have a different perspective. Note that I am NOT in ANY WAY condoning domestic violence. But many, many women are complicit in their own abuse, or those of their children. For drugs, for financial security, for convenience, companionship, whatever. Many women willingly put themselves in danger, and even worse, let their children be victimized. Over and over again. It was probably the most common reason that (despite screening) women were kicked out of the DV safe house. Because they kept going back to the abusive partner. It is depressingly common. And sad because little kids are so often collateral damage. I am a woman, and I do not give other women an automatic pass on this issue. Women need to take more responsibility and stand up for themselves more often. If you have the mindset that you are a likely victim simply by virtue of being female, that right there is giving up and agreeing to be a victim. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/30 "2014-10-03T17:44:51Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I’d wonder how how a 5’ person shoots a standing 6’3 person such that the bullet enters around their temple and exits around their neck. Something in this story doesn’t add up. Maybe the defendant was higher than her husband when she fired, but the story says 4 feet away, which makes that seem unlikely. Is she on a step above the husband, while he is just walking past, four feet away, and not even looking in her direction? Why isn’t he looking? Presumably he knows she’s there and just heard the gun go off. I’m having trouble picturing the scene anyway. Is the front door right at the end of the hallway, with the stairs perpendicular to the hallway? Whose story are we hearing, anyway? Hers? The OP treats it as fact, whereas a jury must be sceptical. I would want to hear more about this. > > I’d also want to hear more about what the wife has done to protect herself previously. According to the story, she says nothing to incriminate her husband when the police show up. Later on, the story says she called the police herself, but the fact that she doesn’t tell police about the violence seems to imply someone else called them. If she says nothing while the wounds (whether physical or emotional) are fresh, it seems odd that she would visit a divorce attorney, women’s shelter and even a court at other times. I should have explained better. There is one flight of steps in the house, that lead down from the upstairs to the front door. She was walking down the steps (maybe had made it down the first three or four). He was walking down the hallway, towards the steps and front door. So when she shot the first shot, they were both facing the same direction, and she was a few feet above him. She is not a native English speaker. So that is a major issue (and I have seen that in play with many domestic cases I have worked). Also, part of her personality disorder makes her focus on really weird things that are not relevant. So when the cops would say, what happened… she would go on and on about whatever they were fighting about. That is what is important to her. She wouldn’t say that he tossed her around. That is not important. What is important is the he hid all the kid’s pacifiers and the baby needs a pacifier. Pacifier pacifier pacifier… all in broken English. Never mind the bruises up and down her arms. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/31 "2014-10-03T17:45:09Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > yes. real facts. real case. set for jury in November. i’m doing this as a jury pool experiment. Ew. I feel a bit dirty for treating this as a game, now. Upon consideration, it doesn’t change my theoretical votes though. Out of curiosity, do you already have a ruling on whether the neighbor’s testimony about “nigglets” will be admitted? I am (naturally) not familiar with Virginia’s evidence code. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/32 "2014-10-03T17:46:25Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > None. That was poorly worded. We are in the same jurisdiction, btw. > > Virginia’s NGRI standards are terrible, but its still a question of fact to be resolved by the jury, meaning they have to be persuaded by the doctor’s testimony. We would argue that her years of abuse and PTSD led her to believe the threat was still imminent after he stopped choking her because her heightened fight or flight response prevented her from rational thought. In that moment, her biochemistry prevented her from understanding right from wrong. Yes, and that last sentence is key: the doctor’s testimony has to fit the M’naughten standard. It would be tragic to not get the insanity instruction in because you don’t make the record. I’m guessing that since Plowman’s still in there’s no decent offer to take? ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/33 "2014-10-03T17:49:38Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Executions are first degree murder. Precisely what the prosecutors are saying. It’s a terrible fact for us, obviously. But the ME’s report does say that the first shot does not kill him, and that he would be gargling on his own blood. They even note that they understand, “why she said he was laughing at her,” in their bench notes, because he would be aspirating blood. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/34 "2014-10-03T17:54:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m guessing that since Plowman’s still in there’s no decent offer to take? They have offered second with a sentence cap. Guidelines start at 10 years. My client is barely competent, and definitely crazy by any standard. She won’t take this offer. They may be willing to go down to voluntary manslaughter. The family will do almost anything to keep the kids from having to testify. I would probably bend over backwards to get her to take this plea. Her guidelines would start at probation. She’s been in for almost a year and a half. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/35 "2014-10-03T17:55:29Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I said not guilty, because I believe that’s how it would have played out in Canada. We have prior abuse records, and we have a witness who could testify that dad had mom pinned up against the wall the night of the shooting. I would have eventually arrived at a not guilty verdict as well. I sat on a jury in an similar attempted murder/aggravated assault case. The judge gave us specific instructions as to the definition of self-defense in Canada. Basically, if it is believed that the accused acted in self-defense, then there is no line between when it ceases to be defensive and switches to being the offensive. Also it is up to the Crown to charge the accused properly. The jury does not get a multiple choice of the possible convictions. FTR my case started out as a attempted murder but was dropped to aggravated assault (with a weapon) just after the jury selection. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/36 "2014-10-03T18:04:05Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But all that is evidence to be weighed by the jury. You have her testimony, but is it credible? Do you believe her wrt her state of mind? She will not be testifying. All of the info is given to law enforcement during her interrogation, and is corroborated by the kids. The prosecution has to play the interrogation for their case in chief. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/37 "2014-10-03T18:04:49Z")
Who has the better lawyers? In a trial it would all depend on what they have for evidence, testimony, professional opinions, etc. Are the past calls about DV admissible? Can the kids testify about the abuse and be believable? I’m sure there are many other facets that I’m unsure about. Which is probably why I’m not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/38 "2014-10-03T18:07:18Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > They have offered second with a sentence cap. Guidelines start at 10 years. My client is barely competent, and definitely crazy by any standard. She won’t take this offer. > > They may be willing to go down to voluntary manslaughter. The family will do almost anything to keep the kids from having to testify. I would probably bend over backwards to get her to take this plea. Her guidelines would start at probation. She’s been in for almost a year and a half. If she could get probation with time served that would be awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/39 "2014-10-03T18:40:22Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > They have offered second with a sentence cap. Guidelines start at 10 years. My client is barely competent, and definitely crazy by any standard. She won’t take this offer. > > They may be willing to go down to voluntary manslaughter. The family will do almost anything to keep the kids from having to testify. I would probably bend over backwards to get her to take this plea. Her guidelines would start at probation. She’s been in for almost a year and a half. I agree that on those facts, voluntary manslaughter is a good offer – as long as there’s not going to be anything in the presentence report that will blow up in your face, especially since you just know the Commonwealth will ask for something at the upper end of the guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278/40 "2014-10-03T18:53:13Z")
If she’s ‘crazy’…then why is she in prison? Why isn’t she being treated? And can the defense offer time in a mental ward in lieu of prison? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-are-on-my-jury-do-you-convict/700278.md?page=3)