# You better get yourself a good lawyer, Captain. (Open Trek spoilers likely) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 2, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160 "2006-06-02T17:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/21 "2006-06-02T23:18:52Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Of course, mentioning DS9 makes one wonder how ODO kept his job. At least Odo was good at “shift” work. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/22 "2006-06-03T01:35:00Z")
Scotty beams the whole kit 'n kaboodle of Tribbles onto the Klingon ship. I can’t believe that’s not a violation of _something._ How many times did Data do a bad thing because he broke down, was reprogrammed or temporarily under the control of someone else? Wouldn’t you think Starfleet would eventually say “It’s a magnificent machine, but the Mean Time Between Failures is pretty bad.”? Seven-of-Nine should have been several rule violations all by herself. At least she inspired _me_ to think of several types of violations. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/23 "2006-06-03T02:01:32Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > I’m in the minority thinking that Janeway made the right decision there. Only if the technology of applying timers to explosives became a lost art between the present and her time. Talk about an easy solution… ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/24 "2006-06-03T21:20:33Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > Well, he did do pretty well against Geordi’s lute. Yeah, but he apologized after, what kinda shit is that? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/25 "2006-06-03T21:40:11Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > I’m in the minority thinking that Janeway made the right decision there. Unfortunately, virtually every other command decision she made during the series seemed to indicate that she had bipolar disorder and needed to be relieved and heavily medicated. Janeway dealt with both the Borg and Species 8472. She obtained untold amounts of intelligence about the Delta quadrant. She totally deserved Admiral, even if she did make a few fubars. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/26 "2006-06-03T23:47:59Z")
What about Picard’s constantly surrendering the ship? That’s gotta be worth at least a courts marshall. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/27 "2006-06-04T00:04:11Z")
I watched part of an episode recently in which Picard had been off the ship serving undercover as a man named Galen, and Riker had been with him as a disgraced StarFleet officer. Crisis occurs, is dealt with, and Picard, Riker, and Data proceed to have the following conversation. Data had been in charge of the ship. (Note: Not being a Star Trek Geek, this will be a paraphase–I don’t care if it isn’t accurate.) Picard: I will now resume command of the Enterprise and report to the Bridge. Riker: There’s this minor problem with that, you are on file as being dead. Data?: Now that you mention it, you (Riker) are on file as a renegade officer with 12 charges filed against you. Picard: You’re right. OK, as long as I’m dead, I’m going to my quarters to sleep. Data, take Riker to the Brig, then report to the Bridge. You are still in command of the ship. (Exit Picard) (Riker attempts to leave, but is grabbed by Data) Data: The Brig is this way. Riker: He was joking. You know that, don’t you? (Riker and Data exit towards Brig, or maybe credits come up, I’m not that obsessed). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/28 "2006-06-04T01:32:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Janeway dealt with both the Borg and Species 8472. She obtained untold amounts of intelligence about the Delta quadrant. She totally deserved Admiral, even if she did make a few fubars. I’ve never unerstood the rabid hatred of Janeway. Like no other Captains ever violated the Prime Directive? Kirk didn’t blow up their ruling computers left and right? Picard always sat there at the view screen drinking tea watching the locals kill and eat each other with fava beans? Sisko punched Garak for murdering a Romulan to bring them into the war, but sure didn’t tell anyone about it. The only possibility is that folks who hate Janeway have issues with their Mothers. ^ :dubious: ^ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/29 "2006-06-04T01:58:00Z")
Well, Picard was usually pretty good about keeping the Prime Directive, and I don’t remember Sisko ever violating it (remember, it only applies to pre-warp civs), but I’ll be the first to admit that Kirk meddled regularly. The difference is that first, Kirk usually at least acknowledged when he did so, and second, it wasn’t the basic premise of the entire show. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/30 "2006-06-04T03:00:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > it wasn’t the basic premise of the entire show. You mean that they were far away from home because she saved the locals by destroying the what ever you call it platform, rather than that they made an effort to violate the PD every episode, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/31 "2006-06-04T03:11:09Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > … [Snip]… even my geekiness has its limits. :: Puts arm over **Aerison’s** shoulder avuncularly :: Your memory, maybe. But your geekiness knows no bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/32 "2006-06-04T03:11:19Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > What about Picard’s constantly surrendering the ship? That’s gotta be worth at least a courts marshall. Risking all kinds of Gaudere-based humiliation… it’s courts-martial. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/33 "2006-06-04T05:13:13Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Risking all kinds of Gaudere-based humiliation… Where do I sign up? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/34 "2006-06-04T05:17:29Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > Geez, you kids. Kirk violated some directive or regulation every other week. > > Jim Something like 17 temporal violations. The man was a menace! 😃 > [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure that’s right. If I recall correctly, he turned down a captaincy of his own before joining Picard’s staff because he felt he wasn’t ready yet (presumably because he felt being XO of the flagship looked better on his resume than being CO of a smaller ship, maybe just a freighter or a science ship); he again turned down command in “The Icarus Factor” but never said why; and he turned down command after Wolf 359. (Admittedly, the ship he was supposed to take over got destroyed in that battle, and despite what Shelby said about him getting any ship he wanted, I imagine there was a shortage of command slots for many XOs after that.) So by my count he turned down command twice DURING his tenure on the Enterprise, the first instance being before. Actually, all three ships he was offered commands of (including the most recent, _USS Melbourne_, IIRC) were destroyed at Wolf 359, so in hindsight, turning down those commands was probably ultimately beneficial to his career. Then again, it’s possible that a creative sort like Riker might have thought of SOMETHING to pull out during the battle, what with his actor having a contract with the networks and all :D. Plus, after Wolf 359, with many XOs presumably dead along with their ships, I’d be willing to bet that command slots would soon become very available to someone with Riker’s rank and experience, especially once Starfleet began rebuilding (those 39 ships must have been doing SOMETHING particularly useful other than camping out in the Terran System before Wolf 359, so I bet Starfleet would want some more ships to get back to doing that again). Once Starfleet began expanding rapidly in the years leading up to the Dominion War (around the same time that the _Enterprise_ was destroyed in the battle with the Duras Sisters), command slots would have been Riker’s for the taking. > [@](#): > > Worf, on the other hand, would presumably have to bone for the commander’s test not long after Insurrection. Worf commanded the _USS Defiant_ for a time, and later the _IKS Rotaran_ during the Dominion War. From what I understand, he fairly shot up through the ranks of the Klingon Defense Forces during the Dominion War and could have become Chancelor before the end of the war, except he didn’t want the job (There WAS definitely a job opening for Chancelor at the time, mostly a result of Worf winning a fight for once). > [@Tuckerfan](#): > > What about Picard’s constantly surrendering the ship? That’s gotta be worth at least a courts marshall. I can’t think of an occassion off the top of my head where Picard surrendered the ship to an enemy, can you give some examples? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/35 "2006-06-04T05:26:16Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I can’t think of an occassion off the top of my head where Picard surrendered the ship to an enemy, can you give some examples? IIRC (I haven’t watched TNG since they originally aired), one instance had him doing that, and then recruiting **kids** to take back the ship. I may totally be mistaken about that ep., as I said, I haven’t watched the series in ages, so my memory’s fuzzy. I do know that I’m not the only one to level the accusation at Picard. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/36 "2006-06-04T18:28:36Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I can’t think of an occassion off the top of my head where Picard surrendered the ship to an enemy, can you give some examples? The very first episode of TNG “Encounter at Farpoint”, where Picard surrendered to a space jellyfish. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/37 "2006-06-04T18:57:55Z")
I’ve always argued that Picard’s failure to ‘produce’ promotable officers was the one big failing on his command record. Because training officers to the point that they are command ready OUGHT to be one of his duties. Others have cited the massive loss of ships at Wolf 359 – well, the Federation seems to be ‘rich’ in resources, so cranking out replacement ship was doable, but who was going to take the center seats? In anything like a ‘real world’, Picard should have found himself without Riker and Data and maybe Geordi in short order, each sent off to helm a ship of various size. And then there would be a round of promotions and we’d see Picard breaking in a NEW First Officer and Chief Engineer and so forth. Riker’s attitude was the most troubling: He’d found a cozy home on the Enterprise, liked his co-workers, and so wanted to settle down and nest in that spot. Well, that may be what he’d like, but by staying there he was a big plug in the pipe. How was Data to get a chance to stretch into First Officer? How was Lt. Whoever to move up to Second? And down the whole chain. The Enterprize was a great ship, but the only realistic road to promotion was a transfer off. The first time Riker turned down the promotion to captain they should have turfed him off the ship anyway. He has no command ambition? Well then, send him to be a flunky at a close-in starbase or some desk job somewhere. First Officer is where we train future Captains. Get this loser out of the way so an officer who DOES have ambition can show his stuff. (Sorry, this is one of my Trek sore spots. They kept giving the lead characters in TNG meaningless promotions – more pips, but no greater challenges or duties. Right.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/38 "2006-06-04T19:23:58Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > IIRC (I haven’t watched TNG since they originally aired), one instance had him doing that, and then recruiting **kids** to take back the ship. I may totally be mistaken about that ep., as I said, I haven’t watched the series in ages, so my memory’s fuzzy. I do know that I’m not the only one to level the accusation at Picard. I think you’re confusing two different episodes. There was an episode where the Enterprise had a major accident, disabling it and stranding crewmembers in various parts of the ship. Picard was stuck in, IIRC, a damaged turbolift with a bunch of kids, and had to get them to work together to get them all to safety. At least, I think that’s the one you’re thinking of. I’m not a Trek fan, so you might be thinking of something entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/39 "2006-06-04T21:34:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think you’re confusing two different episodes. There was an episode where the Enterprise had a major accident, disabling it and stranding crewmembers in various parts of the ship. Picard was stuck in, IIRC, a damaged turbolift with a bunch of kids, and had to get them to work together to get them all to safety. > > At least, I think that’s the one you’re thinking of. I’m not a Trek fan, so you might be thinking of something entirely different. The episode with kids versus Ferengi was called “Rascals.” The episode with kids in the turbolift was “Disaster.” ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160/40 "2006-06-04T22:50:46Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The episode with kids versus Ferengi was called “Rascals.” The episode with kids in the turbolift was “Disaster.” IIRC, in the kids vs. Ferengi episode, a number of the kids were actual Starfleet officers (Picard, Guinan, and maybe Troi, I can’t remember) who got de-aged in a transporter accident. So basically they weren’t REALLY kids (though I think they may have gotten some real kids to help them, I’m not sure). Gotta love some of those Trek plots. Anybody remember the one with the automated arms salesman on the long-abandoned planet? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-better-get-yourself-a-good-lawyer-captain-open-trek-spoilers-likely/359160.md?page=3)