# You callous bastard **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2001, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386 "2001-07-22T01:31:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/21 "2001-07-23T22:09:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Originally posted by featherlou \*\* > _I don’t completely agree with **FoolsGuinea** (what two humans ever completely agree?), but he has a valid point._ Maybe so, but his words were less of a considered point of view (IMNSHO) and seemed more like political rhetoric (again, IMNSO). > [@](#): > > \*We humans are in a frame of mind where we consider ourselves above and outside of the natural world. We also consider every one of the nearly 6 billion human lives on this planet to be sacred. I, for one, don’t agree with that philosophy. Human beings are not sacred; we are a dime a dozen, and it’s time we woke up to that fact. - Nice. Try using that in a court of law. “Your honor, my clinet killed those one-hundred twenty people because he belives human lives are a dime a dozen. My client was short on change and wanted to buy a $1 Twix bar from a vending machine.” While in principle I agree with the point of humans not being above nature, I think your sentiments are rather callous nevertheless. > [@](#): > > _I believe that there is a definite possibility that human beings will breed/poison ourselves into extinction, and if we manage to do so, we deserve our fate._ There’s a good possibility this is true, but look at the birthrates around the world and you’ll notice that many (if not all) of the biggest increases are in the poorest parts of the world. Besides, what do I know about increasing the world’s population, I’m a goddamn virgin! > [@](#): > > \*The universe has no sympathy for a species that can’t live successfully within the confines of their environment, and neither do I. \* Do you use this line with the opposite sex? I’m sure they’d love it. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/22 "2001-07-23T22:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > **No, we are using CELLS. CELLS. Not people. CELLS.** As I said, I am not very informed on this subject. I apologize for the error, but from what I had heard they were taking stem cells from aborted fetuses. > [@](#): > > \*\*How about i put it this way, if some guy is going to hurt my cat, and some other guy is gonna shoot up a high school, I’m gonna stop they guy attacking my cat first. \*\* I believe this sort of thing (failing to stop a murder or assault, or doing nothing about it) is unlawful in some areas nowadays. I don’t give a damn about your cat, but that high school might just be where some of my friends go to school. I’d hate to think that they died so your cat could live. In fact, I’d probably come after the furball myself. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’d die to protect my cat. But i wouldn’t die to protect you. \*\* Glad to know that, I don’t want or need your protection. I’ll happily entrust myself to someone who gives a damn about other people’s well being. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/23 "2001-07-23T23:16:00Z")
Hmmm . . . Sounds to me that **foolsguinea** is suggesting that an _entire_ species is more valuable to an ecosystem than the _individuals_ of another species. I certainly think it worth the lives of a thousand rats to keep them from destroying the last kakapo, for example. And in broad terms, for the sake of biodiversity, humanity can much better afford to lose a thousand individual members than quite a number of other species. So now that I’ve said that, who wants to accuse me of “moral bankruptcy?” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/24 "2001-07-24T01:05:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > mmm . . .I certainly think it worth the lives of a thousand rats to keep them from destroying the last kakapo, for example. But he didn’t mean rats, **andros** , he said _human beings_. To put it another way, would you sacrifice 1000 of the Dopers on this board to save a species? To make up an example, lets use the Specticled Weasel Hawk. Just imagine the following: “Goodbye **Libertarian** , **Coldfire** , **SueSponte** , **SPOOFE** , **GingerOfTheNorth** , **jab1** , **manhattan** , **CrankyAsAnOldMan** , **Alphagene** , **Enderw24** , **Scylla** , **Collunsbury** , **Manda JO** , **spooje** , **Drastic** , **TheNerd** , **jarbabyj** , **Freedom** , etc…, you’re all going to die so that a solitary Specticled Weasel Hawk might live.” This list may even end up including you and me, since said selection of Weasel Hawk martyrs would of course be random. You can’t let a personal grudge enter into this. I wonder how many would say that a single bird of any species is worth 1000 people who they know. It’s always other people, never their friends. And damn you for bringing the kakapo into the argument, it’s one of my favorite birds! 😛 > [@](#): > > So now that I’ve said that, who wants to accuse me of “moral bankruptcy?” :rolleyes: I certainly won’t, but it does take a certain quality to post stuff like the biodiversity argument. (Which may be true, but is quite unsettling to hear or read.) Call it cynicism. I do. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/25 "2001-07-24T14:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \ ***Michael Ellis** > I believe this sort of thing (failing to stop a murder or assault, or doing nothing about it) is unlawful in some areas nowadays. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \ ***Michael Ellis** In fact, I’d probably come after the furball myself. Odd, i thought animal cruelty was illegal, too. I guess not. Or is that what they teach people who live in their parents’ basements nowadays… Of course, if you hurt my cat, you’re dead, its as simple as that, so by not stopping yourself, you are technically not stopping your own murder, so you are breaking the law. > [@](#): > > I apologize for the error, but from what I had heard they were taking stem cells from aborted fetuses. Many of them are, originally, but you can clone them from fetus cells, or from marrow, or potentially many other parts of the body. Its just now fetal cells are easier to obtain and duplicate. Abortions are going to happen if you are opposed to them or not, so maybe we should use the cells to help people who can live outside their mothers rather than throwing them in the trash. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/26 "2001-07-24T15:06:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > To make up an example, lets use the Specticled Weasel Hawk. > > Just imagine the following: > > “Goodbye **Libertarian** , **Coldfire** , **SueSponte** , **SPOOFE** , **GingerOfTheNorth** , **jab1** , **manhattan** , **CrankyAsAnOldMan** , **Alphagene** , **Enderw24** , **Scylla** , **Collunsbury** , **Manda JO** , **spooje** , **Drastic** , **TheNerd** , **jarbabyj** , **Freedom** , etc…, you’re all going to die so that a solitary Specticled Weasel Hawk might live.” Having followed this thread from the first, I will now say, that I, jarbabyj, would in fact sacrifice myself in order to save the Specticled Weasel Hawk. you see, animals with names like that, deserve to thrive. Ibexes? Not so much. jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/27 "2001-07-24T17:54:18Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > > Having followed this thread from the first, I will now say, that I, jarbabyj, would in fact sacrifice myself in order to save the Specticled Weasel Hawk. > > you see, animals with names like that, deserve to thrive. Ibexes? Not so much. > > jarbaby \*\* D’oh! 😃 And that’s why we like you so much. I should have known someone would say something like this. Thanks for the laughs. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/28 "2001-07-24T18:04:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > **Odd, i thought animal cruelty was illegal, too. I guess not. Or is that what they teach people who live in their parents’ basements nowadays…** Watch it Tarkass! :mad: Always make your point by going for a cheep shot. That’s what I say. :rolleyes: Oh, and my parents don’t have a basement. And I don’t torture animals, I just eat them. > [@](#): > > **Of course, if you hurt my cat, you’re dead, its as simple as that, so by not stopping yourself, you are technically not stopping your own murder, so you are breaking the law.** Lighten up! My point was that I wouldn’t like it if my friends died because you stopped a man from killing your cat instead of stopping a shooting at my old high school. > [@](#): > > \*\*Many of them are, originally, but you can clone them from fetus cells, or from marrow, or potentially many other parts of the body. Its just now fetal cells are easier to obtain and duplicate. Abortions are going to happen if you are opposed to them or not, so maybe we should use the cells to help people who can live outside their mothers rather than throwing them in the trash. \*\* I agree. Recycle \everything\ goddammit! ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/29 "2001-07-25T04:55:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\*In case I wasn’t clear about which side I was refering to as disgusting, it wasn’t the argument of the OP, it was the people who try to make arguments that equate animal life to human life. \*\* Odd, I find it disgusting when people put human life sooo far above animal life, as if we weren’t also animals. Frankly, I don’t see that much difference. Yeah, Person \> cockroach and Person \> field mouse (though I still find value in the lives of both the cockroach and the field mouse) however I think that when it comes to Person vs dog or cat or cow or monkey… well it’s more on a person by person, dog by dog, monkey by monkey basis. I’d sacrifice my dog to save my son, but I would sacrifice my neighbor to save my cat. For that matter, I’d consider sacrificing my neighbor just because, if it wasn’t so gosh-darned illegal. But that is neither here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/30 "2001-07-25T05:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > > To put it another way, would you sacrifice 1000 of the Dopers on this board _ **to save a species** _? To make up an example, lets use the Specticled Weasel Hawk. > > Just imagine the following: > > “Goodbye Libertarian, Coldfire, SueSponte, SPOOFE, GingerOfTheNorth, jab1, manhattan, CrankyAsAnOldMan (snip) etc…, you’re all going to die so that _ **a solitary Specticled Weasel Hawk** _ might live.” Make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/31 "2001-07-25T05:57:43Z")
One of the reasons this is such an emotional issue, I think, is because the “human over animal” superiority thing is often used as carte blanche to run roughshod over any animal species in the way of corporate profit… er… I mean, progress, without any thought to consequences or how to avoid it. Sort of a Natural Manifest Destiny, “them rainforests would look great all paved over, sez Rush” type of thing. “Animals don’t have souls. So what if a few insect species die so we can drill for oil? Screw 'em! Screw 'em all! We need gas for our SUVs!” Heck, if you think this issue is hard to deal with, try getting into the “environment vs. economy” thing, which is even more grey. Fun fun fun! I think it’s not very easy to strike a balance, since it’s soooo easy to tilt against a reaction you find extreme. Heck, I think I need to start a GD thread, to satisfy my curiosity… ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/32 "2001-07-25T07:44:03Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > > Make up your mind. \*\* About what? I was making the point that someone who says that 1000 people should die to save a bird should probably stop and think about what he’s saying. I also find that putting a fixed value on human life very troubling. But maybe I’m just too nice a person. We should all be so coldly logical. Although the idea of sacrificing certain people does have an appeal to me, whether they’re killed to save animals or not. And don’t anyone accuse me of being a “pave it, zone it and sell it” person. If I was I wouldn’t be living in the middle of nowhere surrounded by wildlife, now would I? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/33 "2001-07-25T08:51:00Z")
I don’t like to hurl insults, but… if you are willing to lay down your life for your fucking _pet_, you are a fool. Remember a couple of years back when LA was experiencing terrible fires in the canyon regions, and lots of homes were burned to the ground? There was a story of a wealthy individual whose home was burning. He evacuated, but re-entered the inferno to save his cat. He died. The cat lived. He was a fool. I’m all for the preservation of species, and against cruelty to animals, but they are lower species. We are, with a few notable exeptions, more important. I understand people having genuine affection for their animals, and I love my dog, but I would not take a bullet for her. I will mightily smote whoever fired that bullet but…well, you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/34 "2001-07-25T08:58:18Z")
Yawn. Let’s quote someone out of context, then go for some cheap emotional point scoring. Here’s **Foolsguinea’s** original statement: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by foolsguinea \* > **At current population levels, the lives of 75 million human beings are replaceable. The lives of even 800 bald eagles may not be.** Seems fairly logical. If 75 million people were killed by some disease or disaster, as tragic as that would be (and obviously it’s a greater level of tragedy than anything mankind has seen in it’s recorded history) it would not actually eradicate mankind. If 800 bald eagles were killed, that could be enough to end their species. So then you come down to which is the worse event. How do you come up with a **completely objective** value for which is a greater tragedy? 75 x 10[sup]6[/sup] people against one species. A tricky question, and I don’t see how anyone can give a definitely correct answer, so it’s down to value judgements. **FG** goes for the one above, which is at least a valid one for debating. What do you go for: > [@](#): > > I wonder how many would say that a single bird of any species is worth 1000 people who they know. It’s always other people, never their friends. Which shows what exactly? From our point of view, then the death of one loved one is probably too great a cost to save a species. But, to be honest, I would probably rather that a hundred posters on this forum died than my wife did. Nothing personal, but there you go - personal is personal, and objective is objective. Is my wife worth more than a hundred of you, objectively? No. Is she worth more than a hundred of you to me, personally. 'Fraid so. That either makes me entirely callous from one point of view, or too sentimental from another. But I wouldn’t then go railing into someone who claimed that, objectively, my wife’s life is not of greater value than a whole species. And I really wouldn’t start throwing out names like **“Callous bastard”** and **“hideously twisted son-of-a bitch”** , just for trying to present a valid argument. Worse than that though, you go into Maude Flanders mode: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > “Goodbye **Libertarian** , **Coldfire** , **SueSponte** , **SPOOFE** , **GingerOfTheNorth** , **jab1** , **manhattan** , **CrankyAsAnOldMan** , **Alphagene** , **Enderw24** , **Scylla** , **Collunsbury** , **Manda JO** , **spooje** , **Drastic** , **TheNerd** , **jarbabyj** , **Freedom** , etc…, you’re all going to die so that a solitary Specticled Weasel Hawk might live.”_\* And won’t someone please consider the children, eh? Please, won’t they consider the children. An issue is started as a question, becomes a debate, and when someone says something you disagree with you call them names and start using cheap trick arguments. Classy. And another thing - if you’re going to start a pit thread about someone’s comments in a debate, have the decency to give them a link and a heads up, rather than letting someone else do it 40 minutes later. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/35 "2001-07-25T15:42:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Michael Ellis > “Goodbye Libertarian, Coldfire, SueSponte, SPOOFE, GingerOfTheNorth, jab1, manhattan, CrankyAsAnOldMan, Alphagene, Enderw24, Scylla, Collunsbury, Manda JO, spooje, Drastic, TheNerd, jarbabyj, Freedom, etc…, you’re all going to die so that a solitary Specticled Weasel Hawk might live.” Thank god I wasn’t mentioned! That means that the lady Dopers that survived and I get to repopulate the planet. Think of how smart the kids will be. [Dennis Miller] Y’know, if it comes to a choice between my heart and a gorilla’s heart, well, sorry, Koko…it’s been nice signing with you. [/Dennis Miller] This arguement is basically stupid. First of all, **NO** life is sacred. Let me ask this (and I take this from George Carlin): If everything that’s ever lived is dead, and everything alive is gonna die, where does the sacred part come in? That said, I see both sides. Yeah, I’d let my cat die if that meant saving my niece. Yeah, I’d let my cat die if it meant that Columbine never happened. Whatever happened to “The good of the many outweighs the good of the few?” Yeah, humans suck. And we DO cause some extinction of animals. But (according to [this](http://www.newburgh.k12.ny.us/ca/sci/gone.htm)) species go extinct at an average of about 25 a day, and humans don’t kill them all. That’s what nature does. If the bald eagles are doomed to extinction, that’s nature’s plan. It’s supposed to happen. When humans go extinct (and we will), that’s nature’s plan, too. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/36 "2001-07-25T15:51:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*I don’t like to hurl insults, but… > > if you are willing to lay down your life for your fucking _pet_, you are a fool. Remember a couple of years back when LA was experiencing terrible fires in the canyon regions, and lots of homes were burned to the ground? There was a story of a wealthy individual whose home was burning. He evacuated, but re-entered the inferno to save his cat. He died. The cat lived. He was a fool.\*\* Just because someone has different priorities than you, they are a fool? What a sad way to look at the world. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/37 "2001-07-25T16:08:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > About what? I was making the point that someone who says that **1000 people should die** to save a bird should probably stop and think about what he’s saying._\* Ok, well you get back to us when and if someone suggests such a thing, m’kay? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/38 "2001-07-25T17:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > > About what? I was making the point that someone who says that **1000 people should die** to save a bird should probably stop and think about what he’s saying._\* > > Ok, well you get back to us when and if someone suggests such a thing, m’kay? \*\* I’m so sick of this whole thing right now. I didn’t suggest it. But my point was that when **foolsguinea** said 1000 humans could be sacrificed for a single bird of which there are 799 perfectly good others around was quite a silly thing to say. Oh fuck it, I give up. Come to think of it, I think we should sacrifice Coronado, CA to save the kakapo. This is my first time flaming another poster here, I’m sorry I didn’t do everything correctly. I’m human, OK. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/39 "2001-07-25T19:46:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \ ***Michael Ellis** > I’m sorry I didn’t do everything correctly. I’m human, OK. Too bad your not a bird (or my cat!), then you could be forgiven. But instead you must be purged… > [@](#): > > I think we should sacrifice Coronado, CA to save the kakapo. I don’t know where that is or what that is, but i am all for it!!! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386/40 "2001-07-25T21:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*\ > I’m all for the preservation of species, and against cruelty to animals, but they are lower species. We are, with a few notable exeptions, more important. \ \*\* {By “we”, I assume you mean humans.} I just don’t believe that humans are more important, or that animals are lower than us. Life on Earth is a net, not a pyramid. We humans are links in the net, not the top of the pyramid. I think the persistent idea that we are the top of the pyramid and have dominion over every other species in the world is one more thing to thank Christianity for. **Michael Ellis** , even though I don’t agree with your OP, I think you did a fair job at your first flame. You had a problem with something someone said, you brought it to the Pit, and you stuck with the thread you started. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-callous-bastard/73386.md?page=3)