# "You can do it!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2001, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664 "2001-09-04T14:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/21 "2001-09-04T17:19:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I’ll bet none of you have any idea how many school age kids kill themselves for similar reasons. > > And you don’t either. \*\* Like a lot of people here you seem to be incapable of doing your own research, and since you are clueless, you expect everyone else to be. I have news for you. You are wrong. This information can be found in any World Almanac. Unfortunately, the last edition I have is from 1996. I have seen the 2001 Almanac, and the figures were higher, but I can’t remember them exactly so I will only quote the exact numbers I do have from 1996 (which are also dramatic and unacceptable). All races, both male and female, ages 15-24: 5,350 Of those 5,350 suicides, 4770 were male, and 570 were female. Also of those 5,350 suicides, 3910 were white males, and 470 were white females. 620 were black males, and 80 were black females. I would say that’s pretty exact, wouldn’t you? Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/22 "2001-09-04T17:26:41Z")
I should have added that the total number of suicides in 1996, all ages and races, both male and female, was 32,410. The group which had the highest number of suicides were white males between the ages of 25-34 (5,530), and white males between the ages of 34-44 run a very close second (5,240). Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/23 "2001-09-04T17:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll bet none of you have any idea how many school age kids kill themselves **for similar reasons.** \ > [@](#): > > All races, both male and female, ages 15-24: 5,350 > > Of those 5,350 suicides, 4770 were male, and 570 were female. > > Also of those 5,350 suicides, 3910 were white males, and 470 were white females. 620 were black males, and 80 were black females. > > I would say that’s pretty exact, wouldn’t you? Nonresponsive. Motion to strike. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/24 "2001-09-04T17:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Seethruart \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > I’ll bet none of you have any idea how many school age kids kill themselves for similar reasons. > > > > And you don’t either. \*\* > > Like a lot of people here you seem to be incapable of doing your own research, and since you are clueless, you expect everyone else to be. I have news for you. You are wrong. \*\* Whoa! You’re new here but you certainly showed up dressed for battle. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > I would say that’s pretty exact, wouldn’t you? > > Seethruart \*\* Well your numbers would be impressive if they had answered the question. You let us know how many people killed themselves but we still don’t know whether they did it for similiar reasons. I’m going to conclude that you don’t know that answer. Marc ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/25 "2001-09-04T17:34:39Z")
So you can copy suicide stats; how do you know WHY they committed suicide, which was the crux of your previous posts? For my POV, you should encourage your kids to do their best in every task. If the child succeeds, great; if not, then he will at least know that he did his or her level best. Telling a child, “nah, it’s too hard, so don’t bother” is a page out of the Homer Simpson school of parenting. ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/26 "2001-09-04T17:36:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I’ll bet none of you have any idea how many school age kids kill themselves **for similar reasons.** > > \ > > > [@](#): > > > > All races, both male and female, ages 15-24: 5,350 > > > > Of those 5,350 suicides, 4770 were male, and 570 were female. > > > > Also of those 5,350 suicides, 3910 were white males, and 470 were white females. 620 were black males, and 80 were black females. > > > > I would say that’s pretty exact, wouldn’t you? > > Nonresponsive. Motion to strike. \*\* You have no idea what their reasons were. I was just citing how many “kids” kill themselves. There really are only a limited number of reasons a 15 year old would kill themselves. Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/27 "2001-09-04T17:42:19Z")
Actually, my understanding is that the majority of teenage suicides were attributable to having recently learned that the moonlanding was faked thru examination of tiny photographic anomalies/artifacts. _(Sorry, mods. I know better but did it anyway. It won’t happen again. At least not for a while!)_ ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/28 "2001-09-04T17:42:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*So you can copy suicide stats; how do you know WHY they committed suicide, which was the crux of your previous posts? > > For my POV, you should encourage your kids to do their best in every task. If the child succeeds, great; if not, then he will at least know that he did his or her level best. Telling a child, “nah, it’s too hard, so don’t bother” is a page out of the Homer Simpson school of parenting. \*\* You people will argue with and deny everything that doesn’t fit into your cozy view of the world. Where did I say not to encourage kids? I believe I said not to feed them pie in the sky (not if you want their respect later in life). I’m sure no kids ever come to you with their problems. You wouldn’t listen to them, you would just tell them your narrow view of how it is. Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/29 "2001-09-04T17:42:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Seethruart \* > There really are only a limited number of reasons a 15 year old would kill themselves. I’m just going to go off the top of my head here: Physical/Sexual/Emotional Abuse Drug Problems School Pressures Bullies Unrequited Love Clinical Depression Schizophrenia Bi Polar Disorder Auto Erotic Asphixiation… there are dozens of reasons people kill themselves Seethruart > [@](#): > > Just last week, I read about an 18 year old boy in england who hung himself. In his suicide note he said he realized he would never be able to live up to the expectations of his parents. > > I’ll bet none of you have any idea how many school age kids kill themselves for similar reasons We’re just waiting for you to prove this statement. jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/30 "2001-09-04T17:48:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Seethruart \* > > There really are only a limited number of reasons a 15 year old would kill themselves. > > I’m just going to go off the top of my head here: > > Physical/Sexual/Emotional Abuse > Drug Problems > School Pressures > Bullies > Unrequited Love > Clinical Depression > Schizophrenia > Bi Polar Disorder > Auto Erotic Asphixiation… > > there are dozens of reasons people kill themselves Seethruart \*\* Yes, that’s true, but there are only a limited number a reasons a “15 year old” would kill themselves. I guess you didn’t read that part or you just like to argue, so you can read what you write. > [@](#): > > Just last week, I read about an 18 year old boy in england who hung himself. In his suicide note he said he realized he would never be able to live up to the expectations of his parents. > > I’ll bet none of you have any idea how many school age kids kill themselves for similar reasons We’re just waiting for you to prove this statement. jarbaby \*\* [/QUOTE] I believe I already have. If kids killing themselves (for whatever reason) doesn’t make you take notice, then you aren’t worth my time. Seethruart On ---
**Author:** ![Acco40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Acco40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acco40)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/31 "2001-09-04T17:52:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Seethruart** _: > > Where did I say not to encourage kids? I believe I said not to feed them pie in the sky (not if you want their respect later in life). This is the crux of what I’m getting at. There is a fine line between _encouragement_ and _pie-in-the-sky_ that I believe is glossed over by parents and teachers of children. The latter, IMHO, is detrimental to the psyche of the child as he or she grows up and is slapped in the face by reality. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/32 "2001-09-04T18:10:24Z")
MGibson wrote: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Seethruart \* > > \*\*Like a lot of people here you seem to be incapable of doing your own research, and since you are clueless, you expect everyone else to be. I have news for you. You are wrong. > > \*\* > > Whoa! You’re new here but you certainly showed up dressed for battle. He’s not **that** new here. For a few weeks in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82431), he’s been trying to convince everybody that the Apollo moon photos were faked because there are miniature alien cities in them. His behavior there is similar to his behavior here: “I found something that convinces me that I’m right, and since you didn’t find exactly the same thing I found, you must be wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/33 "2001-09-04T18:15:24Z")
Here are some anonymously written lyrics I found on the internet. This seems to be an appropriate place to post it. I quoted part of a line in my first post. Also, I’ve called this the “world of lies” ever since I read this. That’s the best description of this world that I know of. Suicide Eyes Suicide eyes it’s no big suprise in this world of lies and shattered dreams that pass you by Suicide eyes you hide it well no one can tell just those of us who’ve been through hell There’s so much sorrow in the world today too many want to die They’re young and old and all in between and there’s a million reasons why but no one wants to talk about it there are way more pleasant things just pretend we live in a world without it where we’re happy as kings Suicide eyes I know it’s nothin’ new you’ve thought it through you know exactly what you’ll do Suicide eyes is it meant to be? will it set you free? If you knew would you leave? Are the same things keepin’ you that are keepin’ me? Is it the mystery or the pain? Is it everyone you would leave behind? or the chance tomorrow things could change? What would it take to solve your troubles? I’d love to tell you where the answers lie I’ve searched for years and though I haven’t found them I’ve seen all kinds of things through these suicide eyes. it’s a world of lies a dirty little world of lies Anonymous ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/34 "2001-09-04T18:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* For a few weeks in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82431), he’s been trying to convince everybody that the Apollo moon photos were faked because there are miniature alien cities in them. \*\* Yes, that is exactly right, and I have photographic evidence of it that, you can’t do anything about. You just call me names and say I’m lying. In the real world, it takes much more than that to disprove photographic evidence. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* His behavior there is similar to his behavior here: “I found something that convinces me that I’m right, and since you didn’t find exactly the same thing I found, you must be wrong.” \*\* Thousands of kids commit suicide each year. What part of that is wrong? 🙂 Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/35 "2001-09-04T18:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Seethruart \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > > I’m just going to go off the top of my head here: > > > > Physical/Sexual/Emotional Abuse > > Drug Problems > > School Pressures > > Bullies > > Unrequited Love > > Clinical Depression > > Schizophrenia > > Bi Polar Disorder > > Auto Erotic Asphixiation… > > > > there are dozens of reasons people kill themselves Seethruart \*\* > > Yes, that’s true, but there are only a limited number a reasons a “15 year old” would kill themselves. I guess you didn’t read that part or you just like to argue, so you can read what you write. Nope. I listed reasons a 15 year old would kill themselves. Or don’t you believe a 15 year old can suffer from those things. Seethru, the question is this (and I’ll keep it simple, Radley). How many kids do you think kill themselves due parental pressure to achieve, and then provide a cite to go with it. I already said I don’t know. And you think you do. jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![Acco40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Acco40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acco40)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/36 "2001-09-04T18:44:32Z")
_[[Acco, tied up and spitting the balled up sock out of his mouth]]_ **Hijack!!! Let me go!** ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/37 "2001-09-04T19:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Seethruart \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > > > I’m just going to go off the top of my head here: > > > > > > Physical/Sexual/Emotional Abuse > > > Drug Problems > > > School Pressures > > > Bullies > > > Unrequited Love > > > Clinical Depression > > > Schizophrenia > > > Bi Polar Disorder > > > Auto Erotic Asphixiation… > > > > > > there are dozens of reasons people kill themselves Seethruart \*\* > > > > Yes, that’s true, but there are only a limited number a reasons a “15 year old” would kill themselves. I guess you didn’t read that part or you just like to argue, so you can read what you write. > > Nope. I listed reasons a 15 year old would kill themselves. Or don’t you believe a 15 year old can suffer from those things. > > Seethru, the question is this (and I’ll keep it simple, Radley). How many kids do you think kill themselves due parental pressure to achieve, and then provide a cite to go with it. I already said I don’t know. And you think you do. > > jarbaby \*\* Why don’t you just list all the reasons a 15 year old would kill themselves, so you can find out for yourself the reasons are “limited.” Out of thousands of kids that kill themselves each year, I guess you believe the only ones who killed themselves due to parental pressures are the ones who left notes specifically stating that reason. The ones who didn’t state their reasons specifically could not possibly have killed themselves due to parental pressure. Isn’t that your rationale? I can’t even believe I am responding to this, and I will not be responding to anymore of your post. 🙂 Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/38 "2001-09-04T19:06:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Acco40 \* > \*\*_[[Acco, tied up and spitting the balled up sock out of his mouth]]_ > > **Hijack!!! Let me go!** \*\* Don’t feel bad, I started a thread about tiny long range anomalies found in Apollo photos, and the thread was hijacked by debunkers. 🙂 Seethruart ---
**Author:** ![VileOrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9e8a1a/32.png) [@VileOrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VileOrb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/39 "2001-09-04T19:09:19Z")
1st let me just say that I have already figured out that Seethruart is not worth paying any attention to. That said, I think that there’s no problem with a certain amount of ‘pushing’ in the upbringing of children. Different children need different amounts of push. Some children can handle an awful lot and thrive (e.g. the Williams sisters). Others do poorly when pushed too hard. It is the parents’ job to judge this. OTOH, the school system has been playing around with this quite a bit for a while, mostly in a totally inept way. There’s a lot of people out there who resent it when exceptional children get exceptional treatment. (e.g. all the people who think it’s wrong to give out bumper stickers to the parents of honor role students.) I say let’s reward success. If a student excels, reward them. If a student is heartbroken because they tried hard but failed, I hope they learned that effort is not always enough. I hope that someone comforts them a bit and encourages them to continue trying. Individuals have different abilities. Some individuals have little or no talents. This does not make them worthless. There are some people who have very little to offer society. They love and are loved, one would hope. And so we should try to give them every chance to support themselves, and even support them at a low level if necessary. This does not mean we should give them good grades on poor work. We should not lie to them and say that they are just as smart, or coordinated or whatever, as everyone else. Encouraging them to strive to improve performance is a good idea. If a healthy 7 year old is despairing of ever running a mile in 7 minutes, you can surely say that you know they can do it in 6 minutes if they try hard enough. For surely a healthy child who tries hard will eventualloy be able to do that. They might be 9 years old (or 12, or 15) by the time they do it, but they will achieve it. Give them reachable but high goals. Show them that you love them regardless of whether they reach those goals or not, and reward them when they DO reach them. I’m against lying in almost all cases, be it “you can do it!” or “you can’t do it!” Also, I think it’s a bad idea to group kids of widely different abilities into the same class in hopes that the slower kids will be helped by exposure to the faster kids. Group the kids in groups as similar as possible and they can have a chance of winning some competitions. If they win too many, they should be in a more advanced group. Too few, and they can be moved to a less adnvanced group. The hardest thing is if a child is at the bottom class in every subject and still never wins. This child need some special counciling and help. The one who wins everything can be skipped grades or whatever until they reach a point where they are challenged. I have more thoughts on how team sports can be used to get groups of different talent levels to cooperate effectively, and more. But, I’ll shut up about that stuff for now. Let me just chime in on the side of encouragement and pressure in moderation. This whole thing comes under my personal heading of ‘overprotection’. My parents had to put a sign up on their lawn saying keep off, because neighborhood children were climbing their trees. My parents have no problem with kids climbing their trees. However, they don’t wnat to get sued if a child falls and hurts themselves, which happened to a neighbor. A few years back a lady was trying to sue the District of Columbia because her unsupervised 8 year old fell in the Potomac River, hit his head on a rock, and drowned. She claimed there should be a fence around a hazard so dangerous as a fast moving river with large rocks. I say let the kids get a few bumps and bruises. Supervise them if they can’t recognize a life threatening situation. I learned to watch out for bees when I stepped on one barefoot. I had been told to watch but I didn’t really get it until I stepped. Then when I was told, be careful of walking on the slippery dam, I listened a bit more closely because I remembered the bee sting. And, sure enough, the dam was slippery but I didn’t fall in because I was holding to the rail carefully and testing my footing. I had learned more than just that bees can hurt you. You can get overprotected to death as easily as underprotected. ---
**Author:** ![Seethruart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@Seethruart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seethruart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664/40 "2001-09-04T19:13:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by VileOrb \* > \*\*1st let me just say that I have already figured out that Seethruart is not worth paying any attention to. > \*\* I sure get a lot of attention for someone not worth paying attention to. I guess I’m just not worth paying attention if you can’t handle the truth about the faked Apollo photos (which you obviously can’t). There’s an old saying…“the truth rings.” I’ve got the bell. 🙂 Seethruart [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-do-it/79664.md?page=3)