# You can have my water pistol when you pry it from my cold, wet hands! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779 "2003-06-18T20:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/1 "2003-06-18T20:01:12Z")
[An Annapolis alderman wants to enact a law that would ban most toy guns in the city and fine parents whose children are caught playing with the toys outdoors.](http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20030617-114826-6331r.htm) Her cockeyed justification is: > [@](#): > > If someone commits a felony with one, they will not only be charged with the crime but also with using a toy gun. What a goofy idea. If the fine is large enough to deter simulated armed robbery, then it will be completely out of line when applied to a kid playing in his back yard. Why didn’t she just propose a law giving an increased sentence for using a toy gun in the commission of a crime? An interesting question is whether toy guns have Second Amendment protection. At first glance, one would think not. But, if they can be used to commit crimes, then they could also be used in self defence, so maybe they do come under the “right to bear arms.” (This paragraph is not meant seriously, since the proposal itself doesn’t look serious.) I would have put this thread in the Pit, but there may be posters who would support this idea. Your input is invited. ---
**Author:** ![WaryEri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea666f/32.png) [@WaryEri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WaryEri)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/2 "2003-06-18T20:11:54Z")
Isn’t the banning of toy firearms more to protect people from being shot by police thinking they are armed than it is to prevent robberies with fake guns? That was the gist of a Daily Show segment I saw on a fellow handing toy guns out in an inner city neighbourhood to protest one such ban, anyway. I feel a great deal of pity for any police officer who has to have such a thing on his conscience. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/3 "2003-06-18T20:59:46Z")
Toy guns are not covered by the second ammendment but is covered under the declaration of Independence as to be unalienable rights such as the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. What better example of the persuit of happiness tah a childs toy. You may feel great pity for any officer that may tragically mistake a toy gun for the real thing, but how will you feel for the police force that would arrest a child or his mother for having a harmless toy in public? This Annapolis Alderman is an example of a foolish politician who proposes laws that are ineffective against the problem and only creates newer problems in its stead. ---
**Author:** ![jeel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@jeel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/4 "2003-06-18T21:05:27Z")
All these laws designed to protect us from our own stupidity are seriuosly out of line. If you point a toy gun at a police officer or store owner and one of them shoots you, society just might be better off without you around to contribute to the gene pool. Whether you are seven or seventeen or seventy years old, you are truly an idiot if you point a toy gun at somebody you don’t know not expecting to get shot with a real gun in retaliation. Children will always play “cops and robbers” or “cowboys and indians” if they have to use sticks to do it. Tell me that people like the alderwoman in Annapolis won’t try to ban children from playing with sticks that closely resemble real guns next go around. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/5 "2003-06-18T21:06:20Z")
The reason this is an issue is the fact that those toy guns look entirely too authentic. We’ve had bans here in Texas (on toy guns, not water guns) – resulted from a kid almost getting his ass shot by a police officer. Water guns should be bright colors and it should be apparent that they are toys – the toy manufacturers need to straighten up their act, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![jeel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@jeel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/6 "2003-06-18T21:23:39Z")
How many kids were shot by cops or others back in 1978 while innocently playing with toy guns? I had several toy guns back then that looked, felt, and almost sounded like real firearms. Somehow, I made it through alive. So did every other young boy I knew that owned a similar toy gun. What has changed? Gangs infest our streets, selling drugs, and killing innocent people and police officers in the process of killing each other. Drug addicts supplied by these gangs, kill, burglarize and rob honest law abiding people to support their addictions. **We really need to get those toy manufacturers!!!** ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/7 "2003-06-18T21:39:34Z")
I see your point, **Jeel** - but the incident I referred to happened (I think) in an upscale community. I know the suburb in which they are now banned doesn’t have rampant drug/gang problems - the ban’s purpose was to protect police and the kids playing with the toy guns. I don’t like the toy gun concept at all, but I’ve got two small boys and eventually had to cave in - we’ve got so many damn toy guns now it’s ridiculous. I don’t see anything wrong with playing with an authentic-looking toy gun in your own backyard, though! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/8 "2003-06-18T21:47:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Toy guns are not covered by the second ammendment but is covered under the declaration of Independence as to be unalienable rights such as the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. First of all, the Dec of I isn’t a legally important document. It falls under general historical context in order to interpret thinking back then, but remember that the actual U.S. Constitution wasn’t two entire governments removed from the one that was in place when it was written. But even if those phrases WERE in the Constitution, they’d almost certainly be considered too vague to stand in the way of particular state actions, especially something as trivial as toy guns. So, while the law is certainly stupid, it’s pretty darn hard to argue that it’s somehow unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > If you point a toy gun at a police officer or store owner and one of them shoots you, society just might be better off without you around to contribute to the gene pool. I’m sure the mothers of dead seven year olds will be comforted to know that you think their seven year olds were rightly killed just because they don’t have the good judgement of full adults. Not saying the law isn’t stupid, but boy does YOUR argument stink. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/9 "2003-06-18T22:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blonde \* > The reason this is an issue is the fact that those toy guns look entirely too authentic. We’ve had bans here in Texas (on toy guns, not water guns) – resulted from a kid almost getting his ass shot by a police officer. Does someone have any pictures of these “realistic-looking” toy guns? Because IIRC, there was a federal law passed around the mid-80s requiring all toy guns to be painted in gaudy bright colors and to look as unrealistic as possible. Heck, I’ve got some toy-collecting friends who have had to resort to black market means to get old collectible toys that resemnble toy guns – you can’t buy 'em in the States any more, and you can’t even import 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/10 "2003-06-18T22:50:36Z")
There are two firsts for me with this thread. This is the first time I ever laughed at one of **december’s** thread titles, and it’s the first time I ever agreed with one of his OPs. Let the kids have their damn water pistols. Part of becoming a man is learning to stalk and soak your friends. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/11 "2003-06-18T23:02:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jeel \* > \*\*How many kids were shot by cops or others back in 1978 while innocently playing with toy guns? I had several toy guns back then that looked, felt, and almost sounded like real firearms. Somehow, I made it through alive. So did every other young boy I knew that owned a similar toy gun. \*\* When I was a kid in Germany the police asked me not to play with my toy uzi outdoors. Kind of strange for a kid to have a van full of police ask to see your toy and then compare it to the guns they had inside. They were nice and polite about it though. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What has changed? Gangs infest our streets, selling drugs, and killing innocent people and police officers in the process of killing each other. Drug addicts supplied by these gangs, kill, burglarize and rob honest law abiding people to support their addictions. \*\* Just a few years ago I was in Sugarland, Texas staying at a hotel for a wedding. On my way out of the elevator I saw a kid with a very realistic revolver and my heart skipped a beat. I don’t think it is a good idea for people to play with realistic toy guns out in public. I don’t think we actually need a law though. Marc ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/12 "2003-06-18T23:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > ## **Exchange between Jeel and Blonde** : > > ## If you point a toy gun at a police officer or store owner and one of them shoots you, society just might be better off without you around to contribute to the gene pool. > > I’m sure the mothers of dead seven year olds will be comforted to know that you think their seven year olds were rightly killed just because they don’t have the good judgement of full adults. > > Not saying the law isn’t stupid, but boy does YOUR argument stink. There is nothing wrong with the argument - you may not care for the tone. However, there are plenty of things children should not do. I know this because I was yelled at constantly. It’s a terrible thing when a child runs into the street and is killed by a car, which is why parents are always telling their children not to run into the street. It’s terrible when a child is bitten by a dog, which is why parents are always telling their children not to pet strange dogs. We also have social and legal standards aimed and stopping bad drivers and bad dogs, but we still try to teach our children not to be stupid. What’s next? A law against children carrying black flashlights because a black flashlight might be mistaken for a pipe bomb? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/13 "2003-06-18T23:20:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blonde \* > \*\*I see your point, **Jeel** - but the incident I referred to happened (I think) in an upscale community. I know the suburb in which they are now banned doesn’t have rampant drug/gang problems - the ban’s purpose was to protect police and the kids playing with the toy guns. \*\* Are you saying that in an upscale neighborhood with no rampant drug or gang activity, the police would still go into a house with kids, Locked and loaded and ready to fire anything that might have a semblance of a weapon and you are sayin its the kids who should disarm? From where I sit, it seems preeetty obvious that their police needs intensive training differentiating friend from foe, innocents from hostiles. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*First of all, the Dec of I isn’t a legally important document. It falls under general historical context in order to interpret thinking back then, but remember that the actual U.S. Constitution wasn’t two entire governments removed from the one that was in place when it was written. \*\* so since the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness is not stated under the constitution, that these rights are in fact alienable and should be regulated and doled out by the government as needed for the purposes of security, civil peace and tranquility of the police? I may have issues about your opinion that the declaration of Independence being legally unimportant but thats for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/14 "2003-06-18T23:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WaryEri \* > \*\*Isn’t the banning of toy firearms more to protect people from being shot by police thinking they are armed than it is to prevent robberies with fake guns? That was the gist of a Daily Show segment I saw on a fellow handing toy guns out in an inner city neighbourhood to protest one such ban, anyway. I feel a great deal of pity for any police officer who has to have such a thing on his conscience. \*\* No. That is not the reason, in spite of what some might try to say today. The fact of the matter, is that when I was young, we all had squirt guns, toy guns, both the girls and the boys. None of us was ever shot by a policeman, and I never ever heard of a policeman shooting a child or even a teenager who was carrying a toy gun. It just did not happen. If current day police are killing children with toys, then the problem is not the “toys”, it is the police, and the lack of training our police have today. In the old days, even before there ever was such a thing as a “police academy”, no cop would shoot a child by accident. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/15 "2003-06-19T00:42:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Are you saying that in an upscale neighborhood with no rampant drug or gang activity, the police would still go into a house with kids, Locked and loaded and ready to fire anything that might have a semblance of a weapon and you are sayin its the kids who should disarm? From where I sit, it seems preeetty obvious that their police needs intensive training differentiating friend from foe, innocents from hostiles. \*\* The situation in Dallas didn’t involve police officers entering houses - I believe the incident occured when a group of young teens, playing out on the street with fake guns, encountered a police officer, and the officer almost shot one boy because he believed the weapon to be real. And, for the record, **j.c.** , the debate you posted wasn’t between me and **Jeel**. I do recall the media here describing the weapon, showing pictures of how closely it resembled a real handgun, etc. I don’t know the answer, guys. A couple of weeks ago, I heard of a motor chase in my area that ended with a man being shot because he pointed something shiny in the officer’s direction. Turned out to be a cellphone, but he’s dead. I’d hate to be a policeman in today’s world. Bless 'em. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/16 "2003-06-19T00:49:47Z")
Will a Super Soaker™ finally be the WMD that all the kids seem to be yakking about these days? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Friendly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Mr\_Friendly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Friendly)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/17 "2003-06-19T01:12:33Z")
Here in the Uk where firearms are scarcer (lets not get into why, you can keep your god given rights to shoot each other), the police have big problems with this. Because they arent used to dealing with firearms that much they have shot people for having objects in bags whihc _look like guns_, in one case a guy was carrying a chair leg in a bag and they thought it was a sawn off and capped him. I’ve myself been warned by police when playing with toy guns and also wearing masks (just dont ask), to be careful because they might shoot us accidentally, taking us for hoodlums of some kind. I guess this guy’s trying to make things easier for the police or at least justify when they do kill innocents: “well he knew toy guns were illegal didnt he” ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/18 "2003-06-19T01:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > so since the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness is not stated under the constitution, that these rights are in fact alienable and should be regulated and doled out by the government as needed for the purposes of security, civil peace and tranquility of the police? Basically, yeah. That’s how it works. It’s not like Paine’s Common Sense is a ruling legal document either, even though it was arguably more important in getting the Revolution off the ground. The problem is this: if you are going to claim those vauge rights, then anyone can claim them about anything. They can argue that being forced to drive on one side of the road infringes on their pursuit of happiness. Courts tend not to buy such logic. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/19 "2003-06-19T03:32:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > If current day police are killing children with toys, then the problem is not the “toys”, it is the police, and the lack of training our police have today. And as you may recall when many of us were kids, the thought of running around the streets with real guns was unthinkable. Pointing even a toy gun at a police officer would be downright suicidal. Police training these days is far more thorough and advanced as 20-30 years ago and lots of it is situational problems just like this. Maybe you need to consider that there ARE plenty of very young kids out there with REAL GUNS. If a twelve year old kid is pointing what looks like a real gun at you, do you want to bet your life on it being a toy. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779/20 "2003-06-19T04:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Does someone have any pictures of these “realistic-looking” toy guns? Because IIRC, there was a federal law passed around the mid-80s requiring all toy guns to be painted in gaudy bright colors and to look as unrealistic as possible. > > Heck, I’ve got some toy-collecting friends who have had to resort to black market means to get old collectible toys that resemnble toy guns – you can’t buy 'em in the States any more, and you can’t even import 'em. \*\* That’s why you have to buy your child [replica firearms!](http://www.iar-arms.com/) [sub]Not really.[/sub] I did some research on this issue many years ago. A surprising number of children have been shot while playing with toy guns. I’m not sure how the numbers are now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-can-have-my-water-pistol-when-you-pry-it-from-my-cold-wet-hands/182779.md?page=2)