# You cannot lie about believing in God, so don't worry about discrimination. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2002, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801 "2002-11-01T05:19:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801/41 "2002-11-03T22:09:19Z")
Since God does not follow his own law all of the time, God may directly ask us to violate his law (breaking the “do not worship idol” commandment). To clarify this point: God decrees: “thall shall not lie” Anything which asks you to lie, must be necessity be asking you to break Gods decree - and must by all rational and reasonable necessity be used as the yardstick with which to tell the true God from any false one. By following the orders of any God who asks you to lie, you are by default following the orders of an Idol, in relation to the commandment. To accept this command to lie, is to show zero resolution of faith in the strength of Gods own word and his own truth, trust and promise. However!!! We recieve evidence that the _actual_ God does ask people to lie, and rewards them as a result. For, if they were to disobey a direct command from God, their faith would equally be weak and undeserving of the gift God offers as truth and eternal life in his presence. In this sense, we have a liar paradox presented in the form of Proxy. Is it really contradictory to use ‘time’ itself as the medium for the paradox? I mentioned earlier that God was basically taking the stance: It’s not really a lie, because after my needs were served, I fessed up to it. Since I am God, my needs are perfect, and you cannot judge them; though I judge you based on the vantage point of my perfection. Sometimes it is warranted to create a person who lies, for the sole purpose of eternal seperation from me in eternal chaotic torture. Sometimes it is important to create a person who lies and spends an eternity of heaven with me as a result. Neither of these negates your necessity to follow my rules or your percieved free-will, or the percieved free-will of the person who chose to lie for me. I am perfect, so everything is different for me; your logic and reason cannot comprehend me, I cannot be judged by reason and integrity alone; but by faith. If you should be commanded to kill your child by me, I may actually let you kill your child before deciding that you had faith in me. That is for me to know, and for you to find out. However, do not ever murder people, and consider all Gods false who ask such acts of you; for theirs is not the Kingdom, but the land of temptation. Remember above all, that I am perfect - and that changes everything. You are obviously flawed and cannot comprehend this. You were not created in my image, but rather the shadow of my image - the path is narrow and few will enter - the Lord works in mysterious ways. Do what you must and what you want, the time is now, but be patient and discipined; but understand that I exist and will always be set to call upon you to test your faith. I am perfect and you are not. Know this and find everlasting life. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801/42 "2002-11-04T01:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*Since God does not follow his own law all of the time, God may directly ask us to violate his law (breaking the “do not worship idol” commandment). \*\* Doesn’t fly. God is not bound by human laws, just as parents are not bound by the laws which they impose on their children, and just as employers are not bound by the laws levied on their employees. In other words, the whole “But God doesn’t follow his own laws!” argument simply doesn’t fly. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801/43 "2002-11-04T01:25:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*Ooh! Ooh! I can do this one! > > If God cares about us, the world wouldn’t suck. The world sucks. Therefore, God doesn’t care about us. \*\* That strikes me as a rather petulant answer, akin to a young child telling his parents, “If you really loved me, you’d let me go out and have a good time!” It’s the sort of answer which starts with a desired conclusion in mind, and tailors the premises accordingly. For a more honest discussion of human suffering – from both atheistic and theistic viewpoints – I refer you to [the debates recorded here](http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/debates.html). ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801/44 "2002-11-04T01:56:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalt \* > \*\*Well, half-assed religious people (i.e. the deists who go to church once a year for fire insurance reasons and call themselves christians) are not all idiots, they’re just confused by pascal’s wager. But, the people who are truly religious and believe every word of their religious text are _per se_ idiots. > > Why do I say this? It’s not based solely on the fact that they’re willing to take a book and believe it was written by the creator of the universe (despite all its inherant contradicitions), although that in and of itself requires a great deal of stupidity. I’ve found that all such people are capable of believing \*anything[/] so long as long as it comports with their worldview. Just the other day a devout muslim told me “did you know that no jews were killed on 9/11?” Of course that implies the jews were all “in on it” and had advance knowledge. I’d have pointed her to [snopes.com](http://snopes.com) (which also debunks the rumor that no muslims aside from the hijackers were killed on 9/11 but somehow I knew she already didn’t believe that rumor) but it would have been futile; as a religious person who will believe anything that sounds good to her, objective Facts (with the capital F) mean nothing to her. All devout religious people (yes, all of them, every single one, 100%, swooping generalization because it’s True with the capital T) are the same way. Thus, they’re all idiots. That doesn’t mean they can’t be my friend, though. \*\* The belief you offer as proof of your assertation is not a religious belief. All devout muslims do not share that belief, nor is that belief limited to devout muslims. I’m confused as to why you brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801/45 "2002-11-04T02:06:47Z")
“”""""""Doesn’t fly. God is not bound by human laws, just as parents are not bound by the laws which they impose on their children, and just as employers are not bound by the laws levied on their employees. In other words, the whole “But God doesn’t follow his own laws!” argument simply doesn’t fly."""""""""" You are absolutely correct, God has no Laws to follow; as he is designated to have created all Law including those which allow Him to have an opinion or to exist. This is much more correct: God doesn’t follow the Laws he sets for people to follow. God demands that other people break the laws he designates them to follow in order to become his most cherished saints of his word. If they do not break Gods law, they are codemned to eternal suffering - but since it is God being deceptive and masking himself as an Idol - even if someone has enough faith in Gods law for man to not follow this command or suggestion of Gods; they will also be condemned to hell. Moral: No matter what God does, all that matters is that God is perfect; not honest, not meaningful, not kind, not merciful, not transparent, not bent on confusion, not capable of accountability, and not able to express accountability in such a way as we mere humans would understand it, without undermining his authority to act at all; or even the possibility to humor his claim. Do you not see a problem with Gods’ use of the least faithful of his law and their trust in his law, as the vessels of his most divine providence and consent? Do you also see, in light of that, the problem with those who obey the commands of God, will be necessarily condemned to eternal brimstone for doing so, because God understands this to be necessary in order for everything to work divinely? Does it not strike you as irrelevant what you do in light of this observation? Do you not see how the entire Bible itself could be a momentary lie of Gods, that he requires in order to send people to eternal hell, before he fesses up and tells the truth again? Does the demand of faith, without evidence or consistency for applying that faith, strike you as a bit absurd? How exactly can a person lie about believing in something so absurd; that to either believe or disbelieve in it renders different results each time and for each person? Without a clear aknowledgement of what is considered the basic evidence required to eat food long enough to survive living; how can a person of Biblical theology even make a point that someone else is playing games with language? If you can confess absolute devotion to God and the Bible and manage to eat food, kill people and lie for a lifetime, then why should anyone be condemned for applying either a rational or irrational standard to the evidence of belief and/or faith? -Justhink [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-cannot-lie-about-believing-in-god-so-dont-worry-about-discrimination/134801.md?page=2)