# You discover a serial killer lives nearby and her kids go to school with your kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 20, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708 "2016-04-20T04:41:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/21 "2016-04-20T16:06:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I think I’d be aiming web cams at their house, recording 24/7 and available on-line. And you would be in breach of Quebec’s privacy laws, and quite possibly committing a criminal offence under federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/22 "2016-04-20T16:07:57Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And if they had any shame at all, they’d be watching this woman like a hawk, since they’re the real reason she’s out on the street. What legal basis do you suggest the police can monitor a citizen who is not suspected of having committed an offence and is not subject to any probation restrictions? We normally don’t want the police to monitor citizens unless they have a reasonable suspicion that an offence has been committed. That rule doesn’t change because of a police screw-up 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/23 "2016-04-20T16:14:56Z")
“Who the Hell makes and shrink-wraps a ‘Serial Murderer Kit Basket’, complete with knives, rope, duct tape, and lye… and gives it to the school for the ‘Tricky Tray’?” “Shhh. Leanne will Hear you…” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/24 "2016-04-20T16:19:26Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Wait, are her kids living with her now???:eek: Wikipedia says that Quebec Children’s Aid apparently determined that her custody would not be automatically placed at issue, even though she participated in the killing of several victims who, while older, were still children. Whatever the justice of maintaining scrutiny upon Homolka herself, presumably the state has an independent and ongoing interest in the safety of the children. Even if removing them from her custody would not necessarily be warranted, it surprises me a bit that they would not be monitored. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/25 "2016-04-20T16:44:45Z")
My heart hurts for those children. How will they not be negatively affected by the actions of their mother? There is no way they can live any kind of a normal life. Depending on the age of my own children, I would have a pretty comprehensive talk with them about this family and their situation. I would encourage them to not participate in any shaming of the children (and I’m sure there will be plenty of that, sadly), but I would also strongly state that my own children would not be allowed to visit that house - at no time and for no reason. Hopefully there will be opportunities for those children to interact positively with other children through public activities outside of the school and neighborhood, where people wouldn’t know who they were. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/26 "2016-04-20T17:50:40Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Poor kids. This is why sometimes I question the right of everyone to just make babies, whether they should or not. Yeah, yeah, I know, I wouldn’t want that power in the hands of any government, either, but _still_. > > That being said, unless we are going to put people away forever or just enact the death penalty on them we have to deal with this. And may I say, ostracizing the kids and punishing them for mommy’s sin’s isn’t exactly going to help them to grow up into stable members of society. I don’t suggest that parents allow their kids to go to her house, but forbidding all friendships? A great deal more would be required than to simply not let your children in her home. _ **Your teenage daughter would not be safe walking home from school.** _ Re. 15 yr old [Kristen French](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristen_French#Abduction_and_murder) (her body dumped on my running route): > [@](#): > > On 16 April 1992, as she walked home from Holy Cross Secondary School, a Catholic school in St. Catharines, French was approached at the entrance of the Grace Lutheran Church parking lot by Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo under the pretense of needing directions. While French assisted Homolka with directions, Bernardo attacked her from behind and forced her into the car at knife point. The kidnapping was seen by several eyewitnesses. > > She was held in captivity for three days, during which Bernardo and Homolka videotaped themselves torturing and subjecting the 15-year-old to sexual humiliation and degradation while forcing her to drink large amounts of alcohol. They murdered her on 19 April 1992. Her naked body was found in a ditch along No. 1 Sideroad in north Burlington on 30 April 1992. _ **Your teenage daughter would not be safe in her own yard.** _ Re. 15 yr old [Leslie Mahaffy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Mahaffy#Kidnap) (a kid from who lived between my place and the high-school that we attended at different years): > [@](#): > > Paul Bernardo eventually admitted he had been on Keller Court, where the Mahaffy home was located, to steal license plates. He saw Leslie Mahaffy alone. He claims he told her he was breaking into the house next door and then offered her a cigarette, which he said was back at his car. When she was close enough to the car, he said he wrapped his sweatshirt quickly around her head, forced her into the vehicle, and took her to the home he shared with Homolka. Homolka’s version of the story is similar, but she claims that once he got Mahaffy to the car to fetch the cigarette, he pulled a knife on the girl to get her compliance. Both agree that Homolka was not present during the kidnapping. > > After 24 hours of rape and abuse by both of the killers, Mahaffy was murdered sometime Saturday night. According to Homolka, Bernardo strangled Leslie Mahaffy with an electrical cord a second time when the first attempt left her unconscious for a few minutes. Homolka, a veterinary technician, had access to sedative drugs which were used to subdue Mahaffy, the same technique the pair used in the rape of Homolka’s sister six months before; the drugs used to murder and rape the 15-year-old child. > > Bernardo stated that he was out of the room, preparing the car to transport Mahaffy to a location where she would be released, when the heavily-drugged Mahaffy died. He has claimed he did not even know she was dead until, after putting gas in the car and taking a shower, he tried to pick her up to carry her away. He said he and Homolka panicked, and that he tried to give Mahaffy artificial respiration. Both killers agree that they gave her a teddy bear to hold during breaks between assaults. > > Sunday, June 16, 1991 was Father’s Day. Bernardo and Homolka moved Mahaffy’s body from an upstairs bedroom to the basement. They then entertained the Homolka family—without Homolka’s sister, Tammy, whom they had killed December 24, 1990—on the main floor of the house, with Homolka making a special effort to keep her mother from going downstairs. When the family left, Bernardo and Homolka used his grandfather’s circular saw to dismember Mahaffy’s body into pieces small enough to lift when covered with concrete. Later, in a confession to her aunt before revealing details to the police, Homolka claimed that Bernardo did this while she was at work on Monday. Bernardo’s version asserts that she did not help him rinse and bag the body parts. > > Mahaffy’s body was found dismembered and encased in concrete on June 29, 1991 in Lake Gibson near St. Catharines, Ontario. The concrete block containing the torso weighed over 200 pounds. Her braces and dental records confirmed her identity. > > Investigators immediately believed she had been raped and tortured. This was confirmed when videotapes were discovered in the home of Bernardo and Homolka. The tapes show that she was held hostage for approximately 24 hours and repeatedly assaulted and sodomized. After Bernardo’s final bid for an appeal before the Supreme Court was rejected, the tapes were all destroyed by the Ontario government. _**Homolko was often the initiator of the rape and torture, according to [the lawyer who saw the video tapes](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/torture-tapes-left-lawyer-traumatized/article18422428/?page=all)**_ > [@](#): > > A lawyer who has spent seven years in social purgatory for hiding videotapes depicting the rape and torture of two girls yesterday described his lonely agony as he watched the tapes in horror and came to believe it was Karla Homolka – not Paul Bernardo – who killed the victims. > > Lawyer Ken Murray said he was appalled by the look of “feral joy” on Ms. Homolka’s face as she actively engaged in the molestation and torture of Kristen French, 15, and Leslie Mahaffy, 14. Mr. Murray said her ability to prey on victims quickly earned Ms. Homolka the nickname “the black widow” among the Bernardo defence team. > . . . . > > Mr. Murray said that from the day he met his notorious client, Mr. Bernardo was all over the map about how he wanted himself defended, yet he was startlingly consistent about admitting to have abducted, confined and raped the Southern Ontario teenagers. > > “His position was that the tapes showed him at an all-time low, and that he was guilty of most of the offences,” Mr. Murray said. “He said: ‘I’m probably going to jail for the rest of my life, but I did not kill those girls.’ His position was: ‘She should have been charged along with me. She was the killer, in the true sense. I did all the stuff I recorded, but I didn’t commit the ultimate act. I’m never getting out of here, but she’s out.’ He wanted, in some sense, to be vindicated.” > > What he saw on the tapes convinced him Mr. Bernardo could be telling the truth, Mr. Murray said. He said the Karla Homolka leering out from the videotapes was far from the self-described, cringing, battered spouse who had been forced to help her husband feed his sadistic impulses. > > He said other videotapes showed Ms. Homolka to be a self-confident, happily married woman who loved her husband as much as she loved being sexually serviced by female hookers or masturbating for the videocamera. > > “I saw somebody who could be shown as a complete liar,” Mr. Murray said. “This wasn’t a lady who had been subjugated. She was happy, compliant, suggestive and willing. In my view, the tapes showed Karla as being often the initiator; often the person in control . . . Nothing on the tapes struck me that she was being dominated or coerced. In fact, there were times that Mr. Bernardo’s actions appeared to be scripted – and it was she who was holding the camera.” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/27 "2016-04-20T17:50:44Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I honestly believe there’s a zero chance of her offending again, and she has to live somewhere… but that’s just me. How can you believe that? People who enjoy raping, torturing, killing, and dismembering people don’t grow out of it. It’s not just a phase. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/28 "2016-04-20T17:55:10Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > My heart hurts for those children. How will they not be negatively affected by the actions of their mother? There is no way they can live any kind of a normal life. My hope is that although Homolka is into raping and murdering teenage girls, that does not necessarily mean that she is into doing it incestuously. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/29 "2016-04-20T17:57:35Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > My hope is that although Homolka is into raping and murdering teenage girls, that does not necessarily mean that she is into doing it incestuously. She raped and murdered her own sister. So hope dashed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/30 "2016-04-20T17:59:34Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > My hope is that although Homolka is into raping and murdering teenage girls, that does not necessarily mean that she is into doing it incestuously. I think \*\*stillownedbysetters \*\*is referring to the stigma they will face. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/31 "2016-04-20T18:28:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > She raped and murdered her own sister. So hope dashed. Damn, I forgot. That puts it down to hoping her sons can protect her daughter from her. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/32 "2016-04-20T18:39:11Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And you would be in breach of Quebec’s privacy laws, and quite possibly committing a criminal offence under federal law. I dunno about Canadialand, but in the US, if those cameras were on my property and not zoomed in on her windows, it would all be perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/33 "2016-04-20T19:05:06Z")
The hell of it is, her own children are probably only comparatively safe because they are under the eyes of the public school officials. If her children were made miserable at school until they withdrew, they’d be in graver danger. That said, I’d move myself rather than let my own children hang out with her children. It blows my mind that “mother is a serial killer who slaughtered her own sister” is not grounds for removing the children in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/34 "2016-04-20T19:49:45Z")
Whilst it is admirable to the loopier Canadian liberals that they were willing to take a chance with her and not keep her caged up like an animal; I feel I should point out that of those I mentioned above, Mr. Christie ( of Rillington Place ) went for the long drop, but this wasn’t an option for those later due to the abolition of the death penalty. However, both Fred West and Harold Shipman did the right thing and swung themselves, despite being alone in their cells, under close observation by prison guards, and without the proper equipment. We really are not a nice people. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/35 "2016-04-20T20:07:51Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Whilst it is admirable to the loopier Canadian liberals that they were willing to take a chance with her and not keep her caged up like an animal; This had nothing to do with liberals. The prosecutor cut a deal with Homolka to get her to testify against Bernardo. The degree of her complicity in the murders was only discovered after Homolka was sentenced, and due to the principle of double jeopardy she couldn’t be re-tried or given a longer sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/36 "2016-04-20T20:56:51Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > This had nothing to do with liberals. [QUOTE=Wikipedia] As a result, using section 810.2 of the Criminal Code, certain restrictions were placed on Homolka as a condition of her release: She was to tell police her home address, work address and with whom she lives. She was required to notify police as soon as any of the above changed. She was likewise required to notify police of any change to her name. If she planned to be away from her home for more than 48 hours, she had to give 72 hours’ notice. She could not contact Paul Bernardo, the families of Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French or that of the woman known as Jane Doe (see above), or any violent criminals. She was forbidden to be with people under the age of 16. She was forbidden from consuming drugs other than prescription medicine. She was required to continue therapy and counselling. She was required to provide police with a DNA sample.[5][49] There was a penalty of a maximum two-year prison term for violating such an order. While this reassured the public that Homolka would find it difficult to offend again, it was felt by the court that it might be detrimental to her as well, because public hostility and her high profile might endanger her upon release.[50] **On 10 June 2005, Senator Michel Biron declared that the conditions placed on Homolka were “totalitarian”,** [/quote] Sounds pretty damn liberal to me. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/37 "2016-04-20T21:12:02Z")
“She was forbidden to be with people under the age of 16.” At all? What does that mean? Can she ride on a public bus? Go into a store? Attend a movie? And how old are her children, anyway?? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/38 "2016-04-20T21:17:01Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > And how old are her children, anyway?? Not fifteen yet. She seems to have a preference for fifteen year olds. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/39 "2016-04-20T21:24:33Z")
Jesus. Don’t they have child protective services in Canada? How the hell is she living with her kids? how does she even have kids? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708/40 "2016-04-20T21:31:29Z")
They do. But privacy laws prevent all of us being privy to exactly what kind of supervision, in any, she faces. Don’t they have privacy laws in the US? Double jeopardy laws? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-discover-a-serial-killer-lives-nearby-and-her-kids-go-to-school-with-your-kids/752708.md?page=3)