You do not appreciate what you didn't earn

I know. But it has value in the sense that it represents the power to purchase a given quantity of goods or services. This depends on how much the goods and services sell for, of course. But the difference between goods-and-services and negotiable instruments (such as stocks) is that stocks have a value which is defined independently of the transaction in which they are sold. No matter what share price you sell the stock for, the value of each individual share - the proportion of the profits of the company that it is worth - is the same for everyone. That is a dollar value. So when you buy or sell a negotiable instrument with a dollar value for a price other than that value, you are divorcing money from its own value. You are treating the negotiable as though it had value of its own as a consumer good, rather than representing other monies, which is what it actually does.

It would be like buying a current loonie for 25 cents, or for $2. Do you see now?

Matt, The value of a cabbage (or any other commodity) is not a fixed number. Of all the cabbages sold in my city today, probably no two will go for the same price. You mean if 7-11 sells the 2 liter coke higher than the supermarket it is causing inflation?

Next time you are flying on an airplane, ask the people around you how much they paid for their seats and you will find out no two people paid the same price (I am invariably the guy who grins after he tells you he paid less than you did).

So what is the “real” value of an airline seat? It is as much as you can get from any individual costumer (and it goes up for Thanksgiving).

Money is one more commodity. Its value is set by the market. If I want to borrow an apartment, I pay rent (set by landlord and market). If I want to borrow a car, I pay a rental fee. If I want to borrow money, I pay interest at a rate that is also set by the market and is variable depending on many factors.

Why is it OK for me to rent an apartment that costs $100000 and pay rent to the landlord, and yet it is not OK if I borrow $100000 from him and pay him interest?

The value of things today is influenced by many factors, even by who the buyer is but one very important factor that influences the market value of things today is the perception of what they might be worth tomorrow.

If I just heard that the price of coffee will go up in a month, I will stock up now, thereby driving prices up in anticipation. If it later turns out coffee prices go down instead… you can call me sucker; It’s my mistake and my loss.

This factor is true for coffee beans, pork bellies, airline seats, bank loans, corporate stocks… get the picture or do you want me to draw you a diagram to make it clearer?

The value of shares today is influenced more than anything else by the perception of what they may be worth tomorrow. If you guess right, you make money, If you guess wrong you lose money. Just like if you decide to invest heavily in a widget factory and it later turns out nobody is buying widgets. You lose. That’s capitalism, that’s what makes things work. People have an incentive to guess right. When it is the government doing the guessing they have no incentive since they are using our money. If they lose it, they just demand more.
Matt, You can discuss theory all you want but please open your eyes to the real world: every country in the world works like this, even China which styles itself communist. There you can buy stocks and trade them and if you borrow yuan you pay interest. And you know what? Those corporations which are privately owned by stockholders are the ones moving the Chinese economy forward so fast and the ones which are government owned are losing money like you wouldn’t believe it.

Okay, let’s see if a definition is helpful - it’s been asked for in a couple of threads.

A stock is an an asset which is a claim to a variable stream of income.

The value of an aset is the discounted present value of the stream of future earnings. The value of an asset paying a dividend D at time t[sub]0[/sub] at interest rate/ time discount rate r is: D[sub]0[/sub]+D[sub]1[/sub]/(1+r)+D[sub]2[/sub]/(1+r)[sup]2[/sup]+D[sub]3[/sub]/(1+r)[sup]3[/sup]…

Since an equity interest has a variable payout, a probability distribution around earnings needs to be added to this, and preferences for risk need to be accounted for (although there are good reasons to suppose that important equity market participants are risk neutral.

If a person thinks that the stream of expected dividends is greater than the current price, they will bid for it. This will continue until no-one thinks it is worth more than it’ market value.

Of course people get it wrong. Importantly, speculators who get it wrong lose. (And if they get it right, they stabilise the market.)

Do markets differ from “the fundamentals” for periods of time? Yes, bubbles occur, where the market seems to keep going up (or down) because it’s going up.

When these things come to an end, and even before, they can be destabilising to the real (as opposed to the financial) sector.

People spending out of increased wealth due to overvalued paper can increase inflationary pressure (yes, this is Greenspan’s concern).

However, anyone who tells you that they know a stock is over/undervalued should be treated wth great suspicion: if they know, why would they be telling you rather than making a shit-load of money (and correcting the valuation).

picmr

picmr:

From what I’ve seen in this thread, it looks like Matt either doesn’t understand or doesn’t accept the concept that money can have a different value based on time. That is to say, that $10 today may be equivalent to $100 ten years from now, which is what justifies “usury”.

I think that you are uniquely qualified to clarify this aspect of the discussion.

-VM

There is a very large misconception over what stocks and money are, as evidenced in this thread. Most of the previous posts are pretty much in error.

Let me offer the following:

  1. The dollar is FIAT currency. It has no intrinsic value in and of itself. It has value because people beleive it does. We use it, and it creates value because of liquidity.
    Let me give you and example: Would you rather have $10,000 in cash, or $10,500 with of fresh shelled peas? Assuming that you are not in the pea-soup making business you probably don’t have much use for several tons of fresh peas dumped in your backyard. Indeed those peas will lose their value as they rot. If you wish to buy a car I suppose you could attempt to pay for it with the peas, but good luck! In order to actualize the value of the peas, you will need to take them to market, and sell them to somebody who has need of peas.

This is why you will probably choose the cash. It creates value due to its liquidity. That is, its ability to purchase goods and services in variety. A liquid asset has more value than an equivalent illiquid asset.

When you are borrowing money, you are purchasing liquidity. Though it is not tangible, it is a very real asset. The person lending you the money is giving up the liquidity. The fact that the asset being exchanged is not tangible is moot. The person or institution doing the lending had to create or gather this liquidity, just as any merchant needs to create and gather the goods and services he sells. Make no mistake, real value is being exchanged.
2. Stock represents equity ownership in a corporation. The only actual or intrinsic value it has is called its Par value. All shares of stock have par value. This is the value that it may be redeemed for upon demand. This value is fixed when the stock is issued, and never changes (not counting splits and such.) Microsoft for example has a par value of two cents. You can take your share of Microsoft to Redmond Washington and theoretically Bill Gates will give you two cents for it if you want.

So, why does the stock trade at $69.00? It’s because of what the stock represents. Let’s use another example. You own a share of stock in the Scylla Chair Corporations (SCC.) There are a total of 100 shares of stock. As its sole asset SCC has 100 chairs each worth $10.00.

You might conclude that your share of stock represents the equivalent of ownership of one chair worth $10.00 and that therefore your stock has a value of $10.00. You would be wrong.

If my brother and I each own 26 shares of SSC,together we represent a majority ownership of SSC. If we jointly decide to sell the chairs for $5.00 to our cousin there is nothing you can do about it. We control the corporation, and our vote will outweigh all others since we control 52% of the stock.

That is all that stock is. Ownership. Control.

In this example, you would be lucky indeed to sell your stock for $5.00 even though it represents ownership in an asset worth $10.00. You probably wouldn’t even get the $5.00 because potential investors wouldn’t want ownership of an asset that was being so badly managed.

If on the other hand my brother and I had a history of finding markets where we could sell chairs that cost us $10.00 for $15.00, and in this particular case, even had a buyer lined up, and an agreement signed to sell the chairs for $15.00, you might conclude that your share would be worth $15.00. You would again be wrong. If you only got $15.00 for your share, you were probably screwed. My brother and I might sell the chairs for $15.00 and use that money to buy more chairs for $10.00 to be sold at $15.00 in the future. By this process, the value of the company would grow exponentially.

Theoretically, you could calculate how long this process would take versus current interest rates and arrive at a present value for SSC. Efficient market theory says that the stock will always trade at this price. That theory has been proven wrong.

The actual price that SSC will trade at depends solely upon public perception. This is affected by many factors.

As a wise (read profitable) investor in stock, you provide value by moving the market in securities towards efficiency. You have given up liquidity and taken on risk to own the stock you purchase.

If you make money, you have earned it.

Okay, Smartass, simple example of why there is a time value of resources thingy. Eep.

Say I’ve got the choice between $100 today and $100 next year. I could choose the $100 now, buy $100 dollars worth of trees, let them grow for a year, then sell them for more than $100.

If you don’t like the dollars in the example, stick with the wood. I have ten 1 metre trees. In a year they’ll be 1.05 metres. If someone wants to pay me for them in a year’s time they would have to offer me the grown trees for me to accept.

So as a borrower, I’ve got to offer people more than what they could get by growing trees. [example ripped off S. Lansbridge I think]

None of this is to say that there cannot be irrationally high discounting, nor that it is obvious that a society should have a discount rate (the former is fairly well established; the latter is highly contraversial).

picmr

I don’ think there’s any reason to be snippy. The theory of economics as applied to cabbages is both well understood and not germane to this discussion. Money, stock shares and loans can be treated as representation, or they can be treated as text. Money originally was used to manipulate real “stuff”; however, because it is itself “stuff” (at least items are individually definable) money can manipulate itself. Matt is trying to make a point about interpretation of value of abstract representations of value (loands and stock shares). What I understand of his position I think is incorrect, or I don’t fully understand his position, but it is certainly not subject to trivial refutation.

The phenomenon of money is weird, and it can lead to some seemingly bizarre results (e.g. valuing a stamp or coin at greater than its face value), but unless money is actually created by a bank, brokerage (stock purchase on margin), or government, the macroeconomic consequences are benign. The current credit economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. What keeps it working is the constant influx of new wealth. Without that new wealth the whole system collapses into depression.

Let’s go through the whole company creation process in some detail. Perhaps we can point to the exact transaction where our interpretations differ.

I wish to create a widget factory. Widgets are currently selling for $11, and they typically cost $9 to make, an 18% profit margin. Demand exceeds supply; the $11 price includes a premium, since buyers are competing for available widgets. I think I can create widgets for $8. Since I will increase the supply, I can’t count on the premium, so I have to calculate the price at $9, a 12.5% profit margin.

In order to create a million widgets a year, I need $1m to buy the widget-making machines and $1m to hire, train and pay the workers, salesmen and administrators until sales get going. Of the second $1m, $200,000 will go to startup costs and $800,000 will go towards ordinary costs of creating and selling the first 100,000 widgets.

I create an empty corporation. This corporation has 1m shares. What is the value of the shares and how many should I sell? They have zero intrinsic value, they don’t represent a dime of physical wealth (except for my own intelligence and creativity). I need to raise $2m with X shares, so I must sell shares for $2m/X each. If I sell all the shares, I must receive $2/share. This is the minimum cost.

Because I’m honest (and I fear the police), an investor knows that some portion will go into actual physical wealth (the factory equipment). That makes the expected present physical value of the share $1 ($1m in equipment/1m shares). This is the minimum value. The shares also have a future value. I should be making $1m/per year in profit. Essentially, I will be creating this much new wealth. Lets assume a 10:1 P/E ratio is expected. This makes $10 the maxiumum value.

There is risk involved. I might not be as good a businessman as I think I am; it might cost $8.50, $9 or even $10 to make a widget. Obviously if it will cost me $10 per widget, and my increased supply drives the price down to $9, I’m going to go bankrupt and the shares would have a future value of exactly $1. So the negotiation of value of a particular share will float somewhere between $1 and $10 depending on the perception of risk. I analyze people’s perception of risk and think that people will buy for $8/share. Note that if the perception of risk makes the stock price go below $2 a share (the minimum cost), it becomes impossible for me to start my business.

I now sell 125,000 shares (12.5%) of stock for $8. I now have $1m in the bank. The company is now “worth” 8 million dollars! Since I’ve granted myself 125,000 shares, I’m worth a cool $1m. Where did this money come from? The answer is, it didn’t. There’s still only $1m of actual money floating around. It’s merely been tranferred from the investors’ pockets to mine. Has $7m of wealth been created? Yes and no. It is expected that over the next ten years I’ll create at least $7m in new wealth (I’m projecting that I’ll create $10m). This future value has been represented in the present value of the stock. But it’s still a phantom; we can’t eat the future value.

What’s happened to the dollar, though? Has its purchasing power been eroded? No! There are still the same amount of dollars chasing the same amount of physical resources. Nothing important has changed about the present representation of currency. If anything, the currency has deflated; There is $6m of new value (representation of future value) for the same number of dollars to chase.

The day after my IPO, Matt comes along. Matt thinks I’m the greatest businessman since Bill Gates. Not only does he think there is little risk that I can make $1/widget, he thinks I can make $1.50/widget! He therefore assigns a maximum value of $15/share to the stock. He wasn’t stupid; rather than entering the IPO and driving up the price to $10, he looks for people who bought the stock at $8 and are willing to sell for $9. He is exploiting a differential in perceived risk. So he buys 100 shares from a Mel, a pessimistic investor, for $9. Mel has “made” $100 from doing absolutely nothing productive! Not only that but the value (market capitalization) of Acme Widgets is now $9m. By transferring a mere $900, Dave has “created” $1m in perceived future value!

Moments later, Dave, who bought 100 shares for $800, decides I’m a complete idiot. He becomes convinced that I’m going to run the company into the ground. His perceived value of a share has dropped to $1 (the physical value). He wants to sell to Matt, but Matt has spent all his money; he can’t buy any more shares. He shops around and finds Karl. Karl thinks I’m a so-so businessman. He didn’t buy anything in the IPO; he doesn’t think a share is worth $8. But he’s willing to buy Dave’s share for $7. Dave is thrilled to cut his losses and exchange 100 shares that he perceives have $100 in value for $700 in cash now. Poof! Acme Widgets is now worth $7m; $2m in value has been magically erased in moments.

Now let’s look at what’s been happening with the money. “Money” is usually considered to be a representation of present value only. No money has been created. No wealth has been created. Money has been moved around, and because it has become concentrated, the money as text has perhaps overall gained some value, but that new value is still speculative. But, fundamentally, nothing has changed. Money has changed location, but the actual physical wealth and the amount of money are still both the same and still both in pretty much the same balance.

Now the banking system comes into play. I go out with my checkbook, buy a building and equipment. I’m now broke but I have $1m in in physical assets. I go to the bank and borrow $1m at 10% p/a interest, using 125,000 shares of stock as collateral. The bank now owns $125,000 worth of present physical value, $875,000 in expected future value, and $1m in the asset of an outstanding loan. By lending me the whole $1m, they have now indeed inflated the currency; There is now an additional $1m chasing the same amount of present physical value. However, as I actually make a profit and create value, I will pay back the $1m plus interest. The potential value has been converted to physical value, and by making 1m widgets, I allowed the physical value to catch up to the currency. After a year there is now an additional $1m in currency and $1m in the value of the newly created widgets. Everything is now in balance.

How has that $1m in new wealth been distributed? After a year, I pay a $1 dividend to my stockholders. That accounts for $125,000. I pay the bank principle and interest; that accounts for $100,000 in principle and ~$100,000 in interest; some of that money is passed to the bank’s depositors. The rest I can use to either expand my widget factory (thus reducing my price by economy of scale), buy another company’s now unprofitable widget factory, or invest in yet another potentially profitable business.

Sorry to be long-winded, but when examining subtle questions such as Matt’s, I’ve found it useful to break things down and examine the situation step by step.

This is what I get for not thinking through the model carefully enough and trying to change my numbers in mid-stream.

I need to raise $1m with X shares; I will borrow the other $1m. If I sell half the shares (I’ll need the other half for collateral), I must received $2/share. This is the minimum cost.

There is $7m of new value.

Sorry about the spelling and punctuation errors.

Just wanted to say, I’m learning a hell of a lot about economics, “the Dismal Science,” from this thread. Thanks to everybody who has contributed, on both sides of this very subtle argument.

I also want to go back to the very first post. I know this is a digression from the current tenor of the argument, but if I’m referencing the OP, it isn’t really a hijack, is it?

I can offer one illuminating example. This is entirely anecdotal, but it is instructive.

I used to work for a telecom company here in Seattle. The founder and chairman was a fellow named Paul Pfleger, a real estate maven worth north of $100M. He had launched the telecom firm, technically a “switchless reseller” (if you don’t know telecom, basically it’s a snake-oil middleman), as a branch of his real-estate outfit. It was designed to lose money, and serve as a tax writeoff. (This isn’t libel. It was part of the new-employee orientation.) But lo and behold, it took off, so Pfleger spun it off under its own corporate identity. It never did make a profit, and eventually went Chapter 11, but through various manipulations, a lot of money ended up in Pfleger’s pocket.

That’s just background. The real point is that a bunch of disgruntled employees were trying to figure out why the company was being run so shoddily, and investigated Pfleger’s background. We came across a Wall Street Journal article from the mid 1990’s (I’d have to dig out my copy for a precise citation) describing a real estate scam Pfleger was engaged in at the time.

There were two housing projects in Washington D.C., big neighboring concrete-block structures. They were managed reasonably well, and had been able to resist the influx of corruption and crime that normally visits those sorts of developments.

Then Pfleger came along, and bought one of them. He cut back on the maintenance staff, he fired all of the security people, he had the building management quit responding to requests for plumbing fixes and whatnot. Within a couple of years, the project was a hellhole, rife with drugs, crime, violence, and filth. The other building, however, remained comparatively pristine, at least for a while, until the influence of its downtrodden neighbor became too pervasive.

At the time of the WSJ article, Pfleger was being threatened by various housing investigators. This didn’t surprise us; the telecom firm we worked for was constantly under scrutiny by a variety of auditors and regulators. (They almost got kicked off NASDAQ, for example, and after they went Chapter 11 the top executives, including Pfleger, were personally named in a shareholder lawsuit alleging insider trading, fraudulent business practices, and so on.) We never found out how that housing scheme turned out, but additional investigation revealed that Pfleger had done this before, picking up cheap real estate, using it as a tax writeoff, and then abandoning it when it got too skanky.

This phenomenon is also at work in Central Baltimore, as well as several other inner cities. The city planners come up with a well-intentioned “revitalization” plan to rescue the ghetto. Real estate vultures exploit the loopholes, make a few bucks, and get out. They have no intention of following through on the revitalization aspect; they make a quick profit and jump out the escape hatch. (In Baltimore, for the last couple of decades, anyone could buy a rowhouse in a depressed area for an absurdly small sum, put in a thousand bucks of work to bring it up to compliance with a watered-down code, rent it for a while, and then sell it after a couple of years. I personally know someone who flirted with the scheme, but got out when he couldn’t stomach the unethical practices.)

I am not suggesting that landlord exploitation is entirely to blame for inner-city woes. There are extremely complex sociological forces at work, including the simple fact of human nature that most people, given the choice, will take the short-sighted and easy way out of things. However, the very real impact of conscience-free real-estate moguls and their profiteering schemes must also be taken into account, and should, I hope, temper your apparent thesis that being poor somehow makes people evil.

I now return you to your ongoing (and most engrossing) digression.

<intensely frustrated part>

How strongly do I have to emphasize this? I KNOW.

In previous postings, I have said: (not bothering to use quote tags:) “The dollar value of real goods and services is freely changeable, and moves according to what the market will bear and/or whatever restrictions are imposed. So if I buy a cabbage from you for $5000 (for whatever reason), that cabbage is well and truly worth $5000.” and “the amount of money that the cabbage is redeemable against is not fixed.” and “Things that have real value have it because their value is not fixed. A cabbage has no fixed value; it’s worth whatever you pay for it.” and “Value of goods and services. This is the price for which a good or service is sold. These values are fluid and freely changeable, and are based upon what the market will bear.”

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CORRECT ME ON THIS ANY LONGER. NOT ONLY AM I AWARE OF THIS FACT, IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE ARGUMENT.

</intensely frustrated part>

And this is the crux of our problem. Money is not a commodity! It is an abstract system which we use to represent commodities which are too heavy and inconvenient or intangible to carry around. Money isn’t a commodity any more than a metre is a real object.

I’m sure you can see the problems implicit in selling a $10 bill for $20. What exactly are you selling? If you sell a $10 compact disc for $20, things are operating normally; you’ve exchanged a product that has no fixed value, and received a payment for it. The balance sheet equals out. It was a $10 CD when I bought it for $10, and it was a $20 CD when you bought it for $20. No problem.

However, when you buy and sell money, thereby altering its value, you are destroying its use as a unit of measurement. You are treating abstraction as though it were reality.

Now this is the part where you need to realize that negotiables perform exactly the same function as money. A ten-dollar cheque, or a bond that can be redeemed (as opposed to sold) against $10, or an IOU for $10, perform the same function: to represent a value of $10. The only difference is that you can’t spend a negotiable right away; you have to find someone who will accept it first, so you can turn it into a “liquid” (i.e. cash) asset. You do this by cashing the cheque, redeeming the bond, or hitting up your debtor for the money he owes you. But this is irrelevant. The point is that to sell a negotiable instrument for any amount of money other than its face value is to destroy its function as a negotiable and turn it into a commodity.

It is easy to forget that a negotiable is money since it doesn’t look like money. You can pretend that it is a commodity; however, you will be using it both as money (whose purchasing power alters relative only to the changing prices of goods and services) and as a commodity (whose value alters all by itself). This is your problem, Sailor - when you say “the value of a stock,” you are talking about its purchase price; I am talking about the money against which it can be redeemed from the issuer. The latter is firmly established; the former is not. So what we have here is money with two different values at once. Can’t you see how that would alter the value of money?

Think of it this way. Let’s compare commodities to measurable things, price to length, and dollars to metres. That is an exact mapping; dollars measure the price of things just as metres measure the length of commodities.

Now, if you’re measuring elastic bands or play-doh, these things can have any length you like. It’s irrelevant. But you always know that the length of the things themselves have changed, because the metres are remaining constant. However, if you were to arrange to change the length of the metre, you’d never be able to tell in the future how long anything really was; all you’d be able to do would be to measure it against this changeable metre. Do you see how that would make it look like something staying the same length had gotten shorter or longer, without any real growth (as it were?)

It’s exactly the same thing with money. If you increase the money supply by fiddling with the value of a dollar, you will be chasing an unchanged supply of goods and services. Of course the prices are going to go up, but since it’s an inflation unrelated to real growth, since production is unchanged, things will cost more but wages will not increase.

You will therefore not be making money by producing anything (i.e. any commodities), and thereby creating inflation associated with growth; you will be literally “making money” without doing anything at all. This means that you will have increased the number of dollars without increasing the amount of goods and services; therefore each dollar will pay for fewer goods and services. This is a problem, because people who are not bankers and investors will not have any more dollars than they used to. They will therefore be unable to purchase as many products as they used to, and you will get the opposite of growth, all the while posting splendid economic figures.

This is what they mean when they talk about “real dollars” or “dollars adjusted for inflation.” If we get inflation due to real growth, then it’s all right if all the prices increase tenfold; my wages ought to be increasing tenfold too, because my employer’s production is increasing. (Theoretically, of course.) If everything costs ten times more, but I’m also getting paid ten times more, then I’m no worse off; my salary “in real dollars” is unchanged. On the other hand, inflation in the money supply without a corresponding increase in production of commodities, which is what paper inflation is, causes real wages (i.e. the purchasing power of your salary) to decrease, since the fixed number of dollars in your salary are chasing more expensive things.

Matt:
Money is a commodity.

I learned this in high school. I learned it again in College when I majored in Finance. I learned it on Wall Street as a trader. I learned it as a Financial Consultant, Registered Investment Advisor, and as a professional money manager.

Be as frustrated as you want, I’m sorry. Money is a commodity. You can even trade it on the commodities exchange.
“I’m sure you can see the problems implicit in selling a $10 bill for $20”

Give somebody 10 year loan at 7% or so and you’ve done just that.

“However, when you buy and sell money, thereby altering its value, you are destroying its use as a unit of measurement. You are treating abstraction as though it were reality.”

The idea that money is a unit of measurement is false. It’s not an abstraction, but merely an intangible asset.

“The only difference is that you can’t spend a negotiable right away; you have to find someone who will accept it first, so you can turn it into a “liquid” (i.e. cash) asset. You do this by cashing the cheque, redeeming the bond, or hitting up your debtor for the money he owes you. But this is irrelevant. The point is that to sell a negotiable instrument for any amount of money other than its face value is to destroy its function as a negotiable and turn it into a commodity.”

Sorry. This is completely false. It’s quite common for what you call “negotiable instruments” to be sold at discounts. It happens all the time. Mortgages, bonds, money market instruments, treasuries, overnight repos, all sell for discounts or premiums to their face values. In actual fact, it’s a real rarity for any of these things to actually sell at their stated (called “par”) value. These items are generally considered to be “liquid” since there is a ready market for them.

“dollars measure the price of things just as metres measure the length of commodities.”

Dollars don’t measure anything. We admitted this fact when we gve up the gold standard under Nixon (though it’s been true all along.)

“If you increase the money supply by fiddling with the value of a dollar, you will be chasing an unchanged supply of goods and services. Of course the prices are going to go up, but since it’s an inflation unrelated to real growth, since production is unchanged, things will cost more but wages will not increase.”

Again, 100% false. The supply of goods and services is constantly changing. When their are a lot of dollars chasing relatively few goods and services, money is considered “easy.” When there are lots of goods and services abailable, money is considered “tight.” This is why we refer to the Fed as “tightening” or “easing” fiscal policy in response to a variety of economic conditions that taken as a whole may call for action.

“You will therefore not be making money by producing anything (i.e. any commodities), and thereby creating inflation associated with growth; you will be literally “making money” without doing anything at all. This means that you will have increased the number of dollars without increasing the amount of goods and services; therefore each dollar will pay for fewer goods and services. This is a problem, because people who are not bankers and investors will not have any more dollars than they used to. They will therefore be unable to purchase as many products as they used to, and you will get the opposite of growth, all the while posting splendid economic figures.”

I don’t know what you are trying to say here.

“This is what they mean when they talk about “real dollars” or “dollars adjusted for inflation.” If we get inflation due to real growth, then it’s all right if all the prices increase tenfold; my wages ought to be increasing tenfold too, because my employer’s production is increasing. (Theoretically, of course.) If everything costs ten times more, but I’m also getting paid ten times more, then I’m no worse off; my salary “in real dollars” is unchanged. On the other hand, inflation in the money supply without a corresponding increase in production of commodities, which is what paper inflation is, causes real wages (i.e. the purchasing power of your salary) to decrease, since the fixed number of dollars in your salary are chasing more expensive things.”

“Real dollars” are an attempt to index dollars to variables, such as inflation and the CPI in order to create an artificial standard from which to measure economic trends. “Dollars adjusted for inflation” are just that. They are a quick and dirty Real dollar useful for thumbnail generalizations.

Your understanding of wages and inflation is way off. It is possible to have an increase in the money supply and deflation at the same time. That is, more wealth would be created even though wages would by and large decrease. This happened in the early 90’s.
“How strongly do I have to emphasize this? I KNOW.”

How to say this kindly? I’m sure you think you know, but from the standpoint of a professional in this particular field, you really haven’t evidenced any understanding. Much of what you say is just blatantly and demonstrably false, and not really subject to debate.

For example, common and well-followed indicators such as the CPI were designed to measure the fluctuation of money compared to a fixed bag of goods in order to bullseye the concept of absolute value.

The elasticity of money is clearly understood, and usually coprises chapter 1 or two of most freshman economic texts. For you to argue against its existence is ridiculous.

Matt’s position is neither trivial nor ridiculous. I think it is incorrect, but I think it is incorrect on a deep metaphysical level rather than on the level of trivial ignorance.

I have been asked many times to explain why light is both a particle and a wave. I can say the mathematics just work out that way, I can repeat 100 times that “Light is both a particle and a wave”, I can say that the wave/particle duality is asserted on page 1 of every freshman physics textbook. I could do all that, but I would be failing to explain why such a counter-intuitive understanding was correct. Also note that in the freshman physics textbook, the authors usually blandly assert the wave/particle duality; the math all works out, just take our word for it for now. Physics students usually are not up to the metaphysical implications until graduate school.

The same is true for freshman economic textbooks. They blandly assert that the equations that work for cabbages will also work for a stack of $20’s (but not kilometers). And true, the equations do work out… but why? They work because money has both an abstract representational quality and a concrete quality.

Consider a group of 100 people. They currently all spend 100% of their waking hours working to survive. They have no interest in creating new wealth, but they would like some time each day to relax in the backyard, smoke dope and enjoy the cherry blossoms. They decide to specialize. So one guy makes shoes, another shirts, another grows food, etc.

Now, the cost of a shirt is not equal to the cost of a pair of shoes. The shirtmaker can make ten shirts a day, I can only make one pair of shoes a day. But I don’t need ten shirts, I only need two. It’s a pain in the ass for me to take eight shirts I don’t need and try to unload them. I’m spending half my free time hawking shirts instead of getting stoned and enjoying the flowers.

So we create “money”. We arbitrarily value our wealth at 100,000 beads give each person 1,000 beads. We then let people trade beads for services. I give the shirt maker a bead when I need a couple of shirts, he gives me five beads when he needs a pair of shoes.

Since there’s no desire to consume more than self-sufficiency, and no desire to create new wealth, the beads have merely representational qualities. An individual’s specialized efficiency vs. self-sufficient efficiency is measured by the amount of leisure he has. At this point, it makes no sense at all for me to buy ten beads from a person for twelve beads. Each person merely has to work hard enough to keep his stock of beads around 1,000.

But the townspeople get bored. Sure they have a few hours a day to kick back, but they’re still living in mud huts, drinking smelly water and wearing cheap shoes. They decide they want to increase their wealth using their surplus labor (the time they’ve been spending admiring the cherry blossoms). But they have a problem! Everyone has an idea, and no one person’s idea can gain a consensus. And then someone hits on an idea. The beads can represent not only the measurement of value of each person’s actual labor, but can directly represent a person’s surplus labor. At this point the beads take on a dual quality. They have an abstract, “measuring” quality (the value of actual labor) and a concrete quality (the actual surplus labor).

Rather than have people try to work a couple hours at a time, people who are interested in contributing to these wealth-creation ideas give up some of their beads, and work an hour or two extra at their normal occupation. This adds up and frees some people to work full-time at the wealth-creation venture, (like Joe, the third and least efficient shoe-maker, who really didn’t like the occupation anyway). Contrawise, some people can say, “this is a crock,” and continue to use their leisure in the ordinary way.

Now we could use another unit, shells, to represent surplus labor, and keep beads to measure abstract value of labor actually performed, but it turns out that these two units are freely convertible and are thus really the same thing.

As we grow in sophistication, the dual nature of money becomes more complex, requiring extensive political and professional management. But fundamentally, it is the property of money, as described above, to both measure the value of actual labor and represent the concrete object of surplus labor that gives rise to modern economic theory.

Just going to reply to one thing, for now.

And do you know why that is? Because the increase in the money supply was unrelated to real production. If the increase in the money supply had been related to more goods and services being sold more profitably, wages for people who created the goods and services would probably have increased. However, the increase in wealth was on paper only, so the wage earners never saw any of it. This was exactly what I was saying in the paragraph you said you couldn’t understand.

Money IS elastic. I know this already and it was what I was jumping up and down in my last post kvetching about. But it is elastic in the sense that the commodities it is used to purchase have their prices change. When money changes in value relative to other money, what on earth does it mean anymore?

Look, I know that all of these things are sold as though they are commodities. As you say, it is a fact and not subject to debate. My point is: (deep breath) when you do that, you are creating money without creating anything for that money to represent the value of, and that that creates inflation without creating growth.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Thank you, Feynman, for giving me something I can actually debate, as opposed to clarifying my position over and over for people who apparently have me pegged as some twit in a beret who eats roots and distributes leaflets for a living.

The dual nature you mention is at the heart of our fiscal problems. You’re right, it is very important in order to have a sophisticated society. However, we have lost sight of the fact that when we treat money as a commodity to excess, we risk ending up with a house of cards. Witness every financial crash dating back to the South Sea Bubble; leaving out the ones that were caused by, say, famine or war, those were incidents of treating money as a commodity to excess.

Matt:

You misunderstood:

"Just going to reply to one thing, for now. quote:
Your understanding of wages and inflation is way off. It is possible to have an increase in the money supply and
deflation at the same time. That is, more wealth would be created even though wages would by and large decrease. This
happened in the early 90’s.

                      And do you know why that is? Because the increase in the money supply was unrelated to real production. If the increase in the
                      money supply had been related to more goods and services being sold more profitably, wages for people who created the goods and
                      services would probably have increased. However, the increase in wealth was on paper only, so the wage earners never saw any of it.
                      This was exactly what I was saying in the paragraph you said you couldn't understand."

That’s not what I said. Deflation is the opposite of inflation. In a deflationary environment (like the example I gave,) money’s value is increasing relative to goods and services. In your terms, the “real” money supply is shrinking not growing as you assert. In a deflationary environment, the wage earners absolutely see every bit of the increase in wealth. Their pay may not have increased, but those same dollars purchase more goods and services than before. This is actually the opposite of what you appear to be arguing.

next:

Look, I know that all of these things are sold as though they are commodities. As you say, it is a fact and not subject to debate. My
point is: (deep breath) when you do that, you are creating money without creating anything for that money to represent the
value of, and that that creates inflation without creating growth.

                      Do you agree or disagree with that statement?"

It’s a false statement.

I’ll get to this later if that’s ok. I want to get to this:

"

                      Money IS elastic. I know this already and it was what I was jumping up and down in my last post kvetching about. But it is elastic in
                      the sense that the commodities it is used to purchase have their prices change. When money changes in value relative to other
                      money, what on earth does it mean anymore?"

Does the tale wag the dog, or does the dog wag the tale?

A loaf of bread will feed a man for one day. Let’s say a loaf of bread costs $1.00 If locusts come and destroy the wheat crop, so that there is only half as much bread as before and the price of bread increases to $2.00, does this bread actually have a different value than it did before? It won’t magically feed two people will it? Has the intrinsic value of bread changed? No. THe price has increased to reflect the scarcity of bread. If a man wishes to eat he will need to make a sacrifice elsewhere so that he can afford bread.

Now a man might get all angry and complain about inflation and argue that $1.00 ain’t worth what it used to be, and that it’s all those lousy currency speculators and rich banker types messing up the value of his wages so that he can’t afford to eat. You and I know that the locusts are to blame, and that the value of a dollar relative to a loaf of bread just reflects the scarcity of bread.

THis is not inflation. This is efficient market action. Inflation occurs when you have a large pool of money trying to purchase relatively scarce goods and services.

It has nothing to do with the creation of wealth through security markets.

Feynman:

I see your point. However you are quite wrong when you assert that money has a concrete value. I do not consider liquidity to be a concrete value, nor do most economists.

There is no wave/particle duality of money. It is only abstract and representational. There is often a strong illusion of concrete value associated with fiat currency, but the truth is it only works because we have confidence that it will.

Matt:

Is the core of your argument that investors and speculators in currencies, commodities, stocks, bonds etc, who merely buy and sell these things without adding value are somehow hurting the people who actually create and build things?

Example, if I buy a stock today for $20 and sell it tomorrow for $40 do you maintain that I have somehow devalued currency to some degree, or taken money from the people who actually work for the company and cxreate widgets?

Of course. It is not “concrete” in the sense that it represents a physical object. I merely mean it can have value in and of itself, rather than be used to measure value. It can become objective rather than representational.

To us laymen, the dual nature of money can be as confusing and counter-intuitive as the wave/particle duality of quanta. I’m trying to make the point that we do better to find ways to explain these counter-intuitive features of the theory rather than, even correctly, assert their validity by the authority of expertise.

Of course. Anything sophisticated and complicated is going to generate problems. We create political and professional systems to manage these problems.

This is a matter of opinion. Some form of political and professional management of our economy is necessary (even if only the minimalist solutions of Libertarianism). The nature and degree of these management tools lie in the realm of political debate (and is thus in accordance with the OP). I think Scylla, pimcr, myself, et al. have demonstrated that your issues do not derive from substantive flaws in economic theory or its general application.

Speculation and arbitrage may move money around “unfairly” (depending on your point of view and definition of fairness), but it does not materially affect the nature of money or value in the purely mathematical economic sense, nor is it caused by a “misinterpretation” of the fundamental nature of money according to economic theory.

The political debate as to how to manage the economy is (to mix my metaphors) a can of worms that I am loathe to jump into.