# You don't like it, you be the Brownie leader! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148 "2011-04-12T21:53:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/141 "2011-04-15T08:43:06Z")
> [@Zulema](#): > > If my child did all the other appropriate scout activities I wouldn’t mind this. My sons were in boy scouts and they went to the paintball range once in a while. I think scouts paid for half of it. So what. Other times they were volunteering in the community and helping keep the scout camp repaired. That’s interesting - we were told that any activity which involved shooting at either other people or effigies was flat-out prohibited. I don’t know if that was just on a local level, or some difference between UK and USA Scouts. We did plenty of target shooting and archery, though, but for attacking each other we settled with Desert Rats (like British Bulldog, but more hands on). ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/142 "2011-04-15T10:07:16Z")
I’m not even a parent let alone a Troop Leader, so I should probably just butt out. But I can’t help myself, I have a few questions for all those who are incensed about the kids doing such a petty, vain thing (in your eyes, not mine, btw): Do you never pick out cute clothes for your girls? Do they all have practical bowl cuts for hairstyles? Do you shoot them down every time they mimic things adults do? If they get an allowance for helping out with house chores, do you tell them how they can spend it? I am not a girly type. I don’t even own make-up or nail polish, I’ve had one pedicure in my life, paid for by a friend as a gift (and she dragged me in there). But I see nothing wrong with a “spa day” of sorts - it CAN be made educational. I love the baskets for shelters idea, or you could expand the cosmetology side to learning about the professional uses of makeup for people with disfiguring scars. Or explore the reasons why the focus on beauty is NOT always a good thing - teach them about anorexia etc. A clever Leader can find a way to educate and broaden young horizons with even the most trivial material. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/143 "2011-04-15T11:26:17Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Whereas the Girl Scouts…? The Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are two separate, unaffiliated organizations. The Boy Scouts discriminate against gays and atheists; the Girl Scouts do not. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/144 "2011-04-15T12:17:50Z")
I happen to think there is no shortage of focus, for girls, (overly so, in fact), on hair, make up, appearance, bodily maintenance ‘needs’ etc. It seems to me there is plenty of time for them to do this when they are 10-12-14yrs old. I don’t feel the need for them to take this up at 7, but that’s just me. I was not trying to mortally offend anyone. I was just expressing my opinion. I could care, if you find it acceptable, truly. Enjoy away, with my blessings. It’s just not to my tastes is all. But it takes all kinds to make a world. I’m not judging any of you to be ‘internet dumbasses’ because you see it differently. I say, as you wish. A shame you can’t return the favour, but that’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/145 "2011-04-15T13:05:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It seems to me there is plenty of time for them to do this when they are 10-12-14yrs old. I don’t feel the need for them to take this up at 7, but that’s just me. Actually, I find this sort of thing at seven to be a lot more innocuous than at 12 or 14: at 12 or 14 it’s not play, it’s serious business. And saying you’d pull your girl out of the troop if they did this, taking her away from her friends and cutting a whole set of activities out of her life, suggests that you don’t just think this is not to your taste, you think it’s fucking abhorrent. And that’s fine, but it’s a really strong reaction to something that is basically just a dress-up party. What do you THINK seven year old girls do at sleepovers? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/146 "2011-04-15T13:15:07Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It seems to me there is plenty of time for them to do this when they are 10-12-14yrs old. I don’t feel the need for them to take this up at 7, but that’s just me. Plenty of time for what, playing? Little girls like to play, especially playing at the special things that mommies do that they are too young for. I remember watching my mom with utter fascination as she was repairing her acrylic nails, she never would have let me have acrylic nails myself at age 6 but once she was done she would put a clear top coat on my nails and I was happy as a clam all day, showing everybody. Or she would do her hair and make a little animal out of hair mousse in my hand. Does it mean I was thrust into the damaging self-image and body issues of beauty at 6? No. It means I got a chance to play with the things that I saw her doing every day, and it made me feel special and I had a good time with the experience. That is all they are doing here, from the descriptions everyone who is actually either involved with this specific activity or has been involved with these types of activities with Girl Scouts in the past. The girls voted, they decided as a group what they wanted to spend the money they earned on, and this is what was chosen. For everyone whining about “I thought my money went to charity!!!” come on. You are buying cookies, not a photo of a starving girl in Guatemala. If you wanted your money to go to charity, perhaps you should donate directly to charity. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/147 "2011-04-15T14:10:35Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Actually, I find this sort of thing at seven to be a lot more innocuous than at 12 or 14: at 12 or 14 it’s not play, it’s serious business. > > And saying you’d pull your girl out of the troop if they did this, taking her away from her friends and cutting a whole set of activities out of her life, suggests that you don’t just think this is not to your taste, you think it’s fucking abhorrent. And that’s fine, but it’s a really strong reaction to something that is basically just a dress-up party. What do you THINK seven year old girls do at sleepovers? Its also so abhorrent that - although the troops stated goals are that the girls will decide (usually via some sort of democratic process) and that they’ll do something “fun” with the cookie money - you are willing to pull your girl when the other girls in the troop decide to do this. Not “oh, I’m sorry, my daughter won’t be participating in that activity, but we will see you all at day camp” but just done with the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Zulema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/db5fbb/32.png) [@Zulema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zulema)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/148 "2011-04-15T14:36:24Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > That’s interesting - we were told that any activity which involved shooting at either other people or effigies was flat-out prohibited. I don’t know if that was just on a local level, or some difference between UK and USA Scouts. > > We did plenty of target shooting and archery, though, but for attacking each other we settled with Desert Rats (like British Bulldog, but more hands on). You could be right, that was the only thing I could think of that was purely fun late last night. Maybe they went with their boy scout people but not as an actual troop. That was a bad example. The point really is that once a year they should be able to have fun doing a thing they want to do that isn’t harmful to them or illegal. But there are other things Boy Scouts did that had no value other than fun, like pizza parties and such. Pizza’s gone once you eat it. Would a trip to Chuck E Cheese have been so reviled as this “spa” outing? There is already plenty of emphasis on eating in our society that certainly we shouldn’t be encouraging them to be junk food gluttons. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/149 "2011-04-15T15:06:30Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > 7 yr old’s spending a day on nails, make up and hair? > [@the lone cashew](#): > > I too think 7yrs is a little young for a session of this vanity garbage. Minor quibble, but I thought we’d established the age of the girls. > [@boozilu](#): > > The girls are 8, It doesn’t bother me that posters might not have read the part saying the girls are 8, but it does catch my proofreader’s eye when I later see references to 7. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/150 "2011-04-15T15:21:06Z")
> [@Zulema](#): > > You could be right, that was the only thing I could think of that was purely fun late last night. Maybe they went with their boy scout people but not as an actual troop. That was a bad example. The point really is that once a year they should be able to have fun doing a thing they want to do that isn’t harmful to them or illegal. Just in the interests of fighting ignorance the BSOA rule is that scouts must not point a firearm (real or paintball etc) at humans, but targets are OK. So a “normal” paintball game is forbidden, but you could use paintball guns to fire at targets: > [@](#): > > Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations. Units with council approval may participate in formally organized historical reenactment events, where firearms are used and intentionally aimed over the heads of the reenactment participants. The use of paintball guns, laser guns or similar devices may be utilized in target shooting events with council approval and following the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety. Council approval means the approval of the Scout Executive or his designee on a tour permit specifically outlining details of the event. (However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Exploring program.) > > [Guide to Safe Scouting | Scouting America](http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss08.aspx#e) In the UK we are not allowed to go paintballing, although air-rifle shooting etc is fine. We do go a step further thought and do not allow shooting at any representation of a living creature (so no pictures of rabbits, for example). This also includes shooting at mythical creatures - so you can’t put dragon or unicorn targets up either 🙂 > [@](#): > > Shooting at targets representing human beings or animals is not permitted as a part of any Scout activity, nor on property owned or leased by, or used in the name of, the Scout Movement. > > [http://www.scouts.org.uk/por9.37](http://www.scouts.org.uk/por9.37) ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/151 "2011-04-15T16:22:43Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > \I’m not judging any of you to be ‘internet dumbasses’ because you see it differently. I say, as you wish. A shame you can’t return the favour, but that’s okay. _snork_ You join the thread to say: _“That’s what they voted on, is your defense?”_, which is an attack on the OP. You ARE Judging the OP. then you add: _“What if they’d voted on learning to pole dance?”_ You’re equating getting ones nails done with being an 8 year old stripper. You are deliberately emotionally charging the situation. You end it by mentioning that you’d be yanking your kid out of the group, clearly this is something that offends you, and yet now you hint that it’s the \*others \* in this thread who are the judgmental ones? (Well, and in all fairness they \*are \*judging you. But at least their not being sanctimonious and hypocritical about it.) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/152 "2011-04-15T17:08:06Z")
Leaders DO have a lot of power - particularly when the girls are young - to guide decisions. For instance, one of my girls was REALLY hung up on working with an animal shelter for our service project this year. Her family doesn’t have pets, and she’s pet crazy. But I have one girl who is afraid of dogs. Another who is allergic to cats. And one mother who I know would not be thrilled about the potential dangers of shelter dogs (her mother, which is why they don’t have pets). Plus, knowing this was coming, we’d contacted a shelter or two - they aren’t thrilled about ten and eleven year old girls and the potential dangers of shelter dogs. So I suggested a blanket drive for a shelter - but that didn’t meet the goal of getting to play with dogs. It took a while to redirect her, but eventually we did. It did take an entire month of meetings to redirect her though - and the other girls would like to pick a service project and not keep talking about the “go play with dogs” idea. We have a limited time in the year and a limited amount of meetings to coordinate and complete the work for our Bronze Award. Which is why the title “You don’t like it, you be the Brownie leader!” rings so true. Because AFTER I’m done trying to build consensus in half a dozen little girls, modeling good respectful behavior of everyone’s ideas, making sure everyone feels listened to, and trying to negotiate compromises, I’m too damn exhausted to deal with their mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/153 "2011-04-15T18:47:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You sound poor. Try doing something useful for once in your life. Buy the kid from the Brownie Council, so that the Unit will have more money for their spa party, and will no longer be troubled by the whinging mom. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/154 "2011-04-15T19:13:28Z")
Can I ask a question, please? What happens if not all of the girls want to go do the spa day? Do they have to anyway? I’m not really sure how I feel about the spa day, which is why I’m not spouting off, but I know at age seven, I would have been miserable being made to go do hair and nails when I wanted to run through the woods…does everyone have to go, did everyone vote in one direction, what happens to the kids who don’t? I’m sure they get ostracized (just like the girls who didn’t want to go camping were kind of looked down on back when I was a Brownie). I don’t have a point or an agenda, I am just genuinely asking. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/155 "2011-04-15T20:12:53Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Can I ask a question, please? What happens if not all of the girls want to go do the spa day? Do they have to anyway? > > I’m not really sure how I feel about the spa day, which is why I’m not spouting off, but I know at age seven, I would have been miserable being made to go do hair and nails when I wanted to run through the woods…does everyone have to go, did everyone vote in one direction, what happens to the kids who don’t? I’m sure they get ostracized (just like the girls who didn’t want to go camping were kind of looked down on back when I was a Brownie). > > I don’t have a point or an agenda, I am just genuinely asking. No. In our troop we really try to do activities all the girls both WANT to do and CAN do. So if we pick a weekend to go camping, we pick a weekend when we think everyone can make it. But we only have five girls…and its hard to get all five of them to everything - just in terms of scheduling. And not everyone is interested in everything. Our service unit also offers a number of “self registered” events that I just hand out flyers for. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/156 "2011-04-15T21:00:53Z")
> [@boozilu](#): > > My daughter suggested the Spa day – it’s a party where they do nails, hair, and “light make-up” with music, dancing, and games at a kids’ haircut place. Thats NOT adpa day, its a day at the kiddie beauty shop. You’ve riled me up over choosing strawberry flavored lip gloss and skin sparkles over a build a bear? I thought you were taking the girls for mani/pedis, facials and a massage. For me a spa day includes at least a massage and a men’s facial and probably includes a pedicure or other foot treatment and possibly a skin treatment. THAT’S a spa day. What you are describing is something that occurs at the mall and involves lots of giggling. If this was supposed to be a treat then I don’t see the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/157 "2011-04-15T21:09:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. I’m probably the smartest poster here. So you’re wrong. WOW ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/158 "2011-04-15T21:35:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I love when threads like this come along and shake the idiots out of hiding Well it sure shook you out of hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/159 "2011-04-15T21:48:05Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I don’t think a spa day builds much courage I don’t know about that. Waxing takes courage. One of the great things about being a guy is that I will never have my courage put to the test. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148/160 "2011-04-15T22:15:40Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Do people really think that when they buy a box of Girl Scout cookies, the money is going to “charity”? I hope so, since Girl Scouts of America is a charity (or for you, elbows, Girl Guides of Canada is a charity). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-like-it-you-be-the-brownie-leader/578148.md?page=9)