# You dumbasses ever heard of "historical re-enactment" or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845 "2010-10-12T01:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/1 "2010-10-12T01:04:13Z")
A GOP politician from Ohio dresses up like a Nazi: [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130492673](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130492673) Quite a few people get pissed. Not me, though. Yes, yours truly, this Jewish race-mixer, is not up in arms. Why not? Because it was a re-enactment, for fuck’s sakes! I mean, I hate Nazis and dislike Republicans as much as the next guy, but let’s be honest: he was dressing as a Nazi for the purpose of a historical re-enactment, not (AFAIK) to show support for Nazism or Neo-Nazi groups. Hell, the group Rich Iott was a part of even has the following disclaimer on its webpage: _This page or anyone involved in its creation, or members of reenactment groups listed here, are in no way affiliated with real, radical political organizations (i.e., KKK, Aryan Nation, American Nazi Party, etc.) and do not embrace the philosophies and actions of the original NSDAP (Nazi party), and wholeheartedly condemn the atrocities which made them infamous. May the victims of this unspeakable horror rest in peace._ His own party is throwing him under the bus, though: _The House Republicans’ No. 2 leader, Eric Cantor of Virginia, said Sunday he would not support someone who would dress up in a Nazi uniform._ Don’t people realize that somebody needs to be the bad guy in a movie/performance/play/re-enactment? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/2 "2010-10-12T01:11:25Z")
Want to join my _al Qaeda_ reenactment club? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/3 "2010-10-12T01:15:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Want to join my _al Qaeda_ reenactment club? Silence! I keel yoo! ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/4 "2010-10-12T01:15:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Want to join my _al Qaeda_ reenactment club? I’d have no problem with that, so long as it was a group devoted to performance, historical re-enactment, and authentic costumes and NOT a group espousing the policies of Bin Laden or anyone else in Al-Qaeda. Same thing with the Nazis. In my younger days I participated in Civil War re-enactments as both a Union and Confederate soldier. It was fun and educational and I don’t recall anyone espousing any racial philosophies. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/5 "2010-10-12T01:20:22Z")
We’re going after Colonel Klink next :rolleyes: Personally, I don’t care it he re-enacted WW2 battles. I don’t care if he plays the part of the Germans or Confederacy or Mongol Horde. But, I am surprised and shocked, that anyone could be surprised and shocked that his own party threw him under the bus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/6 "2010-10-12T01:23:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Want to join my _al Qaeda_ reenactment club? Well, lots of people play video games where they essentially do that. Dressing up and doing it is just the low tech equivalent. But getting back to the Nazi issue. Doesn’t that particular group go a little bit too far in their “celebrating the warrior spirit” of the individual SS soldiers? Maybe someone more familiar with the details can fill in the gaps, but I’m not so sure those guys are just innocent history buffs. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/7 "2010-10-12T01:43:57Z")
From what I’ve read (and I’m perfectly willing to admit that my sources may be biased), it’s not so much that it was a bunch of re-enactors but that they picked the Waffen-SS and that the website didn’t look all that innocent. That’s not exactly the same as being re-enacting part of the Wehrmacht Heer. If I can make a somewhat crappy comparison, nobody would give a politician grief because he was on the Confederate side of Civil War re-enacting but there would be lots of questions if one was trying to somehow re-enact the First KKK from the Reconstruction Era. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/8 "2010-10-12T02:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Iott … was involved with a group that calls itself [Wiking](http://www.wiking.org/), whose members are devoted to re-enacting the exploits of an actual Nazi division, the 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking, which fought mainly on the Eastern Front during World War II. Iott’s participation in the Wiking group is not mentioned on his campaign’s website, and his name and photographs were removed from the Wiking website. > > When contacted by The Atlantic, Iott confirmed his involvement with the group over a number of years, but said his interest in Nazi Germany was historical and he does not subscribe to the tenets of Nazism. “No, absolutely not,” he said. “In fact, there’s a disclaimer on the [Wiking] website. And you’ll find that on almost any reenactment website. It’s purely historical interest in World War II.” …[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/10/why-is-this-gop-house-candidate-dressed-as-a-nazi/64319/)[/RIGHT] So, umm, if all you’re really interested in is WWII why; Isn’t it on your campaign’s website and why have your name and photographs removed from the Wiking website? Not just just be a regular ol’ Wehrmacht soldier and NOT be devoted to re-enacting the exploits of a fucking SS unit that participated in war crimes and had Josef Fucking Mengele as an alumni? > [@](#): > > **War crimes** > > Members of the division’s bakery column, led by Obersturmführer Braunnagel and Untersturmführer Kochalty, assisted Einsatzgruppe A in rounding up Ukrainian Jews. Witnesses report that the Jewish victims were forced to run a gauntlet formed by soldiers who would beat them as they passed, and when they reached the end of the gauntlet, Einsatzgruppen officers murdered them and their bodies were pushed into a bomb crater. The German 1st Mountain Division is also suspected of being implicated. Between 50 and 60 Jews were killed in this manner, as a part of the larger Einsatzgruppe operation which resulted in over 700 murders > > In addition historian Eleonore Lappin from the Institute for the History of Jews in Austria has documented several cases of war crimes committed by members of the 5 SS Division Wiking in her work The Death Marches of Hungarian Jews Through Austria in the Spring of 1945. > > On March 28, 1945, eighty Jews from evacuation column, though fit for the journey, were shot by three members of the Waffen SS division Wiking and five military policemen. On April 4, twenty members of another column that left Graz tried to escape near Eggenfeld, not far from Gratkorn. Soldiers from the 5 SS Division Wiking that were temporarily stationed there apprehended them in the forest near Mt. Eggenfeld and then herded them in a gully, where they were shot. On April 7 and 11, 1945 members of the division executed another eighteen escaped prisoners. > > **Josef Mengele** > > The notorious Dr. Josef Mengele, served with the SS Division Wiking during its early campaigns. According to all accounts, he performed the normal duties of a combat medic, even being awarded the Iron Cross for saving two wounded men from a tank. After being wounded, Mengele was deemed unfit for combat and was absorbed into the SS Nazi concentration camp system, where he gained his infamy. Mengele was very proud of his Waffen SS service and his front-line decorations. As the true horrors of the concentration camp system came to light, his former comrades attempted to have his name removed from the division’s roll of veterans.[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Panzer_Division_Wiking#War_crimes)[/RIGHT] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/9 "2010-10-12T02:25:08Z")
So do they round up civillians and drain them to simulated-death for their bloodbank (preferably children, since they were less likely to have VD) So be sure to bring the kids! Even if they don’t donate blood, you can still eat knockwurst and laugh at the little useless eaters when they beg. The regular German army were assholes, and only an asshole would admire them. If your desire to play “shoot the Russian Commies,” comes from sound Republican values, you can still dress up as Poles or Finns or even [American Doughboys](http://pbma.grobbel.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/10 "2010-10-12T02:31:29Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > From what I’ve read (and I’m perfectly willing to admit that my sources may be biased), it’s not so much that it was a bunch of re-enactors but that they picked the Waffen-SS and that the website didn’t look all that innocent. That’s not exactly the same as being re-enacting part of the Wehrmacht Heer. > > If I can make a somewhat crappy comparison, nobody would give a politician grief because he was on the Confederate side of Civil War re-enacting but there would be lots of questions if one was trying to somehow re-enact the First KKK from the Reconstruction Era. To be fair, the SS did have more awesome uniforms IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/11 "2010-10-12T02:32:45Z")
Is there a corresponding group that re-enacts the Russian side of the battle? Either the regular army or partisans? ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/12 "2010-10-12T02:33:23Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > why have your name and photographs removed from the Wiking website? Gee, couldn’t possibly be because he was worried that something exactly like this, wherein people would jump to irrational conclusions without taking something into context first, would happen and ruin his political career for no good reason? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Not just just be a regular ol’ Wehrmacht soldier and NOT be devoted to re-enacting the exploits of a fucking SS unit that participated in war crimes and had Josef Fucking Mengele as an alumni? Were those units not involved in the war? Were they not part of history? Should we just ignore them completely because of the horrible things they did? I thought the whole point of Holocaust scholarship was to remind people of what happened so that it wouldn’t ever happen again. What do we gain by pretending the SS or Mengle never existed? Reenacters are devoted to reliving the war for reasons of historical scholarship, so why are we only allowed to portray the “good” Nazis? I guess all those actors who played Hitler on film should start shitting themselves, huh? Again, unless new information comes to light to prove that this person is a Neo-Nazi, I couldn’t care less. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/13 "2010-10-12T02:36:26Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > The regular German army were assholes, and only an asshole would admire them Since when does a reenactment imply that the people involved admire the people they portray? They have a disclaimer on their page specifically mentioning that they DON’T admire the SS. This is an issue that has haunted Nazi and Confederate reenacters for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/14 "2010-10-12T02:38:37Z")
I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I’m pretty sure someone is acting niggardly toward something here. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/15 "2010-10-12T02:39:49Z")
Are they re-enacting battles? If so, you need both sides - good guys (us) and bad guys (them). ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/16 "2010-10-12T02:43:07Z")
Not sure. The guy in question said that he has re-enacted American WW2 soldiers, Union and Confederate soldiers, and Nazis, but I’m not sure of the actual orientation of their reenactments. Either way, there’s nothing wrong with cosplay so long as the ideology doesn’t creep into it. This is a mountain out of a molehill (again, AFAIK at the moment). ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/17 "2010-10-12T02:47:40Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Not sure. The guy in question said that he has re-enacted American WW2 soldiers, Union and Confederate soldiers, and Nazis, but I’m not sure of the actual orientation of their reenactments. Either way, there’s nothing wrong with cosplay so long as the ideology doesn’t creep into it. This is a mountain out of a molehill (again, AFAIK at the moment). Well, I’ve known people who “play act” in re-enactments, and they were definitely not Nazis. It was like being in a play or a movie, they were simply the villains. (and they ALWAYS lost). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/18 "2010-10-12T02:51:01Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > > > The regular German army were assholes, and only an asshole would admire them > > Since when does a reenactment imply that the people involved admire the people they portray? They have a disclaimer on their page specifically mentioning that they DON’T admire the SS. This is an issue that has haunted Nazi and Confederate reenacters for decades. In civil war reenactments, there are two sides, and it is my impression that the groups (of two sides) frequently reenact specific battles. I don’t know, but is it the case in civil war groups that people tend to “switch” sides in different reenactments? In this case, was there another “side” playing along? Were they reenacting battles? Or is this simply a case of a bunch of guys who thought it was cool to play dress up in SS uniforms? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/19 "2010-10-12T03:18:42Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Not sure. The guy in question said that he has re-enacted American WW2 soldiers, Union and Confederate soldiers, and Nazis,. Great. He’s a freaking uniform collector. For that he has lost my vote\*. 😛 - Not that I could vote for him or against him ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845/20 "2010-10-12T03:21:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In civil war reenactments, there are two sides, and it is my impression that the groups (of two sides) frequently reenact specific battles. I don’t know, but is it the case in civil war groups that people tend to “switch” sides in different reenactments? Generally not. Uniforms and equipment are not cheap. I’ve known some folks to be in multiple units in Rev War but don’t know of anyone who swings from side to side in the ACW. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dumbasses-ever-heard-of-historical-re-enactment-or-what/556845.md?page=2)